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Post 240

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 3:05pmSanction this postReply
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There is no such thing as murder by starvation, MSK, unless you are directly responsible for feeding someone who is not able to feed himself. You, however, have rightly raised the ire of true Objectivists because you seek, by law, to make it a crime for ANYONE to not feed someone who is hungry. This places the burden of feeding the world's poor on the productive, when they had no hand in creating the circumstances.

You are, like it or not, asserting positive rights, that is, that the child is entitled, by sheer situational stance, to support from those who should not be responsible for him. Too bad for you that you either don't see it that way or you are willfully blinding yourself.

Sidenote: I secretly cheered the split from SOLO in the hopes that you would go away. I can see that I can go back into dormancy until your neo-pseudo-whatevero-Objectivism goes away.

Post 241

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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MSK, trying to put square peg in round hole, wrote to Ethan:

If you are amenable, I will do some research on "depraved indifference homicide," but not right now. I will come back to this later. I, myself, want to see how USA law defines "depraved indifference" as motive.

Don't bother, I already found it for the state of Texas (didn't bother to look for any Federal outlines):


B. Omissions of an Act
1. A failure to act is generally not criminal
2. The exception is a where the actor (with the requisite mens rea) breaches a
known duty that exists due to:
a) Contract
(1) Commonwealth v. Pestinikas - Actors let old man wither and die after agreeing to care for him.  They are found liable.
b) Statute (e.g., failure to file taxes)
c) Common Law
d) A relationship that creates a duty (i.e., parent-child)
e) Assumption of Care - If you start helping someone, you create a duty to finish
f) Creation of Peril - If you put someone in danger, you have a duty to help them.
3. The key question is: Is there a duty owed by the actor?
a) If an actor is unaware a duty has arisen, he is not liable
b) Also, it must be possible for the actor to perform the duty.

VI. Homicide

A. General Principles
1. Murder vs. Manslaughter
       a) The basic distinction is murder requires malice aforethought, while              manslaughter has no such requirement.                 
       b) Modern Penal Codes make the following distinctions:
(1) Murder: intentionally or knowingly causing death (some add recklessly with extreme indifference to human life)
(2) Manslaughter: recklessly causing death
(3) Negligent Homicide: negligently causing death
2. Fetus rules: not murder until fetus is born, though many criminalize if the death is without the mother's consent.
B. Malice Aforethought
1. Defined - the intent to kill (actual or implied) under circumstances that do not excuse, justify, or mitigate to manslaughter
         a) Intent to kill is implied if actor intends to inflict great bodily harm or if the "natural tendency" of his behavior is to cause death or great bodily harm
2. Malice applies to four types of homicides:
         a) Intent to kill  (Note that there is no need for premeditation, just an intent to kill)
         b) Intent to cause great bodily injury
         c) Depraved heart murder (depraved mind, depraved indifference, abandoned & malignant heart)
         d) Felony murder (malice imputed)
3. Malice is essentially a state of mind requirement
         a) It attaches to the result, not the act causing the result
(1) In 'intentional' or 'knowing' killings, this isn't a problem
(2) Depraved heart murder requires a 'reckless' state of mind (the same as manslaughter)
        (a) The difference is the gravity of the risk created.  For depraved heart murder, there must be a 'grave risk of death,' contrasted with 'substantial risk' for manslaughter.'
(b) Thus, for depraved heart murder, the actor must be reckless as to the result (death), and have created a grave risk of death (he need not be aware of the increase in risk from substantial to grave)
(c) Sometimes it is said for b, c & d above that the malice is 'implied.'
(3) Texas handles slightly differently; see below
C. Premeditated Killings
1. Many states distinguish 1st degree and 2nd degree murder by premeditation (deliberation on the idea of killing)
2. Time requirements for premeditation
a) There need not be a long time to deliberate
b) However, mere presence of time to deliberate is not evidence of deliberation
(1) State v. Bingham - Actor strangles woman while raping her in a secluded field.  The approximately 5 minutes it took to strangle is not deliberation because it merely shows an opportunity to deliberate, not deliberation itself
(a) A pause between beating and strangulation would show deliberation
(b) The planned presence of a weapon would show deliberation
(c) Conduct or circumstances suggesting deliberation or a plan would also suffice
(d) Note the court's opinion in Bingham is not without argument: it could be argued that the transporting of the victim to the field evidenced a plan
D. Voluntary Manslaughter
1. Murder can be mitigated to manslaughter if there is an adequate provocation
2. Test for provocation
a) Provocation resulting in sudden and intense passion (not the result of a mental defect) that would cause an ordinary person to lose self-control;
b) Causal connection between passion and killing
c) No cooling off period between provocation and act
3. What characteristics of the actor do we assign to the "ordinary person?"
a) Assign too many and it becomes impossible to convict the actor.
b) Assign too few and the rules become too harsh.
c) State v. Raguseo - Actor obsessed with his parking space goes nuts, stabs victim who parked there.
(1) Majority uses purely objective point of view in evaluating the reasonableness of the actor's conduct
(2) Dissent says we should determine if the actor's conduct is reasonable for a person with the actor's emotional state
d) The standard here is deliberately vague, and thus open for discussion
(1) Some commentators suggest using the actor's handicaps and attributes, but not his personal moral values.
E. Involuntary Manslaughter (Reckless & Negligent Killings)
1. General Requirements: Unintentional killings in the course of…
a) Lawful acts in an unlawful manner (less than depraved indifference, but more than tort negligence)
b) Unlawful acts
F. Felony Murder
1. Generally, an actor is liable for killings occurring during the course of a felony; the intent for murder is implied from the felony.
a) This is often unjust - Ford v. State - Ex-con possesses a handgun (a felony); while cleaning it, it discharges, killing victim in apartment below.  Ford is guilty of murder via the felony murder doctrine.
2. Many require the felony to be "inherently dangerous"
a) Some states view the felony in the abstract to determine dangerousness
b) Most look at the particular facts of the case
c) Note that a "inherently dangerous" does not mean a greater than 50% chance of death - otherwise it would be depraved heart murder
3. Some require 'foreseeableness' for felony murder to apply (though they often stretch this quite a bit)
a) Generally, the felony and the killing must be part of the same "chain of events"
4. Felony Murder and the Merger Doctrine
a) If the felony is an "integral part" of the resulting homicide, it merges with the homicide, so the prosecution must prove the mens rea element of the homicide.
b) Generally, it only applies to assaults; it prevents defeating the mens rea requirments for murder by pursuing assault plus felony murder.
5. Felony Murder and Third Parties
a) Should felony murder apply to co-felons or bystanders killed by the victim of the felony?  (Or bystanders killing other bystanders, etc., etc.?)
(1) Some courts say any death resulting from the felony invokes felony murder, regardless of who caused it
(2) Others limit it to only those caused by the actor
(a) Agency theory - Felony murder only applies to killings by the actor or his co-felons (who are agents of the actor)
G. Murder and the TEXAS PENAL CODE

1. § 19.01 - Criminal Homicide - causing death with any mental state
2. Murder §19.02
a) Intentionally or knowingly causing death
b) Intends to cause serious bodily injury or commits an act clearly dangerous to human life that results in death
c) Felony murder (see below) (also, note those that elevate to capital murder)
3. Capital Murder § 19.03 (Murder as above, plus…)
a) Murder of a police officer or fireman
b) In the commission of kidnapping, burglary, robbery, aggravated sexual assault, arson, or obstruction/retaliation (More Felony Murder, see below)
c) Murder for hire
d) Prison murders
e) Multiple victims in one "criminal transaction"
f) Murder of someone under age 6
4. Manslaughter § 19.04
a) Recklessly causing death
5. Negligent Homicide § 19.05
a) Negligently causing death
6. Voluntary Manslaughter (sort of)
a) Texas has no voluntary manslaughter.  However, the murder provision (§ 19.02) allows an actor to raise "adequate cause" (e.g., sudden passion, etc.) at the sentencing phase to reduce the sentence to a 2nd degree felony.
7. Intoxication Manslaughter § 49.08
a) Basically, drunk driving.  No mental state required.
8. Felony Murder §19.02 (b)(3)
a) Killing during commission or attempted commission of a felony, or during immediate flight
b) Killing must stem from an act "clearly dangerous to human life"

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 2/21, 4:10pm)


Post 242

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:03pmSanction this postReply
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Jason, I'm taking your advice.
Steven, I wasn't hoping for it then, but I am now.
MSK, I hate it how you call yourself an Objectivist. You are hindering others from learning the philosophy behind it. But then... that is your intention, isn't it? Of course, I hope you change or become impotent, but I'm not going to attack your body or property. I will denounce you and reference others to this thread whenever you write bullshit in the future. I hope you take a long break from RoR and do not come back unless you have changed.

Post 243

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa, those are some well written laws, thank you.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 2/21, 4:12pm)


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Post 244

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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Style is a funny thing. For me it is as important as the content; not an either or thing. Tibor Machan has the best style I have read here. Its observant, easy, disarming, truthful, and very benevolent. And a generous benevolent style is what I miss here. I think all of you have made really interesting and good points. But I get incredibly turned-off if there is hint of rancor in the mix.

I differ with many Objectivist that, such as Lindsay, think that any sincere emotion/passion that drives your motivation is good. We all feel rage, bitter, envy, injustice in some doses at some time–but for me, it is a waste of time to express it unless you want sympathy for your victimhood. And that seems to be the stylistic underpinning in most the posts here about a hypothetical gray issue.

Again all of you have made great points; and I apologize for coming into the thread like a school teacher, and not giving credit to those you uniformly gave great replies–I just freaked-out at the nastiness underneath so many of them.

Michael


Post 245

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
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I think I fixed the questionable address issue, thanks.

Post 246

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:12pmSanction this postReply
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Michael N, MSK is promoting fascism/socialism/communism. There is nothing I hate more.
Edit: OK, I hate fascism/socialism/communism being practiced more than I hate it being promoted.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 2/21, 4:14pm)


Post 247

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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I just freaked-out at the nastiness underneath so many of them.
Agreed. The whole community has exploded in name calling - from both sides.  In the inimitable words of Rodney King (in between puffs of crack) - can't we all just get along?

I am sick to death of the name calling. Make your point without referring to the other person's character or motives.


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Post 248

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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"We all feel rage, bitter, envy, injustice in some doses at some time"
You forgot good old fashion frustration, Mr. Newberry. ;)  
There are a few people here who can be persuasive without resorting to digs (Phil and George come to mind immediately).

I'll admit to not having that gift. But when it comes to outright dishonesty, I just don't care, and if it ends up bubbling over onto your party shirt, I apologize.   


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Post 249

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:14pmSanction this postReply
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Quick note for the sake of civility. I don't have the time to read through this whole thing right now, but I would like to state the following general comments based on my own values:

To anyone I have personally insulted, I apologize.

To anyone who has inferred being insulted indirectly, I regret that you feel that way. That was not my intent. (The only intent I possibly might have for the general "those of you out there" is to make you think a little harder.) Should you continue to feel insulted, all I can say is deal with it.

To those of you who have been particularly nasty to me, I understand and I will not condemn you, although I disagree with both your appraisal and behavior. Basically you are good people and reason has too few good people as it is.

Michael


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Post 250

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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Only in objectivism could a discussion about what is proper in the situation of an abondoned baby come to such blows.  Michael said much of what I wanted to say, so I'll take the lazy way out, and point at his post.  Also, for any negative responses, I point at him. ;) 

I would have to be driven by something other than reason to not see the emotions of both sides.  On the one, we have the hypothetical of someone walking away from an abandoned child, and on the other one of O'isms central tenets-an individual's right to his life.  It's hard to see past the emotions to any argument and rational discussion.

I have this question, because this thread has made me sit back and think.  If it is morally wrong for the government to sustain an infant via the threat of force upon an individual, then how do we get around this and hold parents accountable.  An individual is an idividual is an individual.   I don't know how to reconcile that argument when it regards parents.  If you throw away an individuals right to his life(including the right to turn away from a child) in one circumstance(that of being a parent), then what argument could you use to justify this that would not apply in other cases(even when those other cases are radical hypotheticals?  If one believes that a child in danger can never constitute a case where it is appropriate to mortgage another"s life, then what justifies it in the case of parents?


Post 251

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:37pmSanction this postReply
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Jody, currently parenthood is an unwritten contract. I'm sure that one day it will be written in contract.

Edit: hmmm... what about a person that is incapable of thinking well enough to make good decisions that result in the baby living very long? How long does the baby have to live in order for it not to be considered criminal? I'm sure it would be extremely difficult to make a law on this. Earlier I was thinking maybe a parent should not be forced to raise the child either. Maybe the unwritten contract is something like this: "Given a Child, I promise to make sure that my actions do not reasonably cause this Child to die."
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 2/21, 5:45pm)


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Post 252

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
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Jody are you saying that you are in favor of MSK's position?  Did you read the whole thread?  If you do I think you'll see that the starving baby in a forest scenario was a very dishonest diversion designed turn this into an emotional discussion.  And one where he could accuse myself and several others of advocating baby starvation.  Believe me, this last bit was only a desperate manuver to avoid admitting that his position -- which advocates positive rights is in direct opposition to Objectivism.

I am going to advise again that newcomers to this thread read the whole thing before passing judgment.  If you read only the last couple of pages it looks like a bunch of nutcase Randroids are lynching a heretic.  If you read the whole thing I'm sure you'll see that quite to the contrary, MSK has earned every bit of that anger.  Don't get sucked into a silly conversation and debate.  All of MSK's arguments were refuted 150+ posts ago.

 - Jason

(No one has ever argued against parental obligations, which are chosen.   The question has always been whether you or I have an obligation to take care of kids that aren't our own.)

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 2/21, 5:45pm)


Post 253

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, please do not read my Post 242 until you read the entire thread.

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Post 254

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jason-
I admit I have not had time to read the entire thread.  Maybe I should, but even when I disagree with MSK which I think I might here, I know he is not a fascist or a communist.  I would trust him with my rights.

I'm simply saying that what I have read of this thread has made me seriously think about some things.  For instance, you say:
which advocates positive rights is in direct opposition to Objectivism.

 
The key to this quote and the key to my jumping in this discussion is to address that issue of positive rights.  When I first thought of it in the light of positive rights(which I've always logically known were wrong), the immediate thing that came to mind, and which I'll admit I'm just trying to reconcile, is the situation with parents.  If we are legally(and wrongfully) enforcing positive rights for a child by requiring a stranger to help him in an emergency, then how is it not positive rights we are bestowing upon a child when we force parents to take care of them?  I've read many objectivists, Rand included, say that children to not have rights per se, and this is where I think the crux of the matter lies.  This assertion in and of itself, would seem to demand that responsibility for them falls elsewhere.  I'm just trying to reconcile this philosophically, because appeals to rights, both positive and negative, have not done it for me yet.  I can't get my mind around it logically.


Post 255

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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See if I did a good job with those issues between posts 60-80 and post 92.   Let me know what you think... maybe in a private message.  Lets not extend this disasterous thread anymore :)

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 2/21, 6:06pm)


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Post 256

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 6:10pmSanction this postReply
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I can't get my mind around it logically.
Because the parent of a child created the child who now has needs. Society didn't create this dependent, an individual parent or two did.

It's the same situation with any problem or potential problem someone creates. If you cause an accident, or some other situation in which someone is left with a loss, it's you're responsibility to remedy the problems you've caused, not society's.




Post 257

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 6:11pmSanction this postReply
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Wow Jason, those were good posts! Here is a link to Post 62.

So for parents, maybe the contract is simply: "I promise that if I decide to stop providing food, shelter, and water for the Child, I will continue providing food, shelter, and water for the Child until I place it in the custody of another who is reasonably capable to and does sign and agree to this contract to provide food, shelter, and water for the Child."

Note, MSK has not done, and will not do what Jason suggested in Post 72. After that, he altered the forest to an American forest so that he wouldn't be a hypocrite. What is the significance of an American forest? He is promoting fascism, but he is unwilling to be one of the slaves. Of course he wants to control you.

Of course I want to control you too-- but only to the extent that makes sure that you do not initiate force against me or that which I love. My goals are to live, enjoy my life, promote science and reason, minimize initiation of force, and maximize consensual trading between producers. I love producers. Producer means something that net creates value for me. A value is that which I act to gain or keep. You can determine whether I am your friend or enemy by examining my actions.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 2/21, 6:35pm)


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Post 258

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 7:12pmSanction this postReply
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Interesting, I just realized something. I have been angry that MSK has more atlas points than me. I've been thinking it was silly of me to be angry about that. Now I have realized why: I am angry because most of the time when I see his post is sanctioned I think it is an injustice.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 2/21, 7:13pm)


Post 259

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
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I think this thread should probably just die out... the facts are pretty clear at this point and continuing discussion is just going to drag things out (and down) further.

I've seen a lot of strong logical arguements from a lot of strong logical people. And I've been hurt depressed and exhausted by the rest.  I don't think I'm alone in saying this. But if not that's my take on the line of dialogue.

---Landon


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