About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Welcome and thank you, Keith Augustine!

As you probably know, Ayn Rand was a 100% rational naturalist and an atheist. She wrote a little about the meaning of life in 1943. In one scene of The Fountainhead, through her fictional character Gail Wynand, she proclaimed the right and the rightness of each human being to exist for nothing but their own joy. She continued as follows:

"Every one of them wants it. Every part of him wants it. But they never find it. I wonder why. They whine and say they don't understand the meaning of life. There's a particular kind of people that I despise. Those who seek some sort of a higher purpose or 'universal goal,' who don't know what to live for, who moan they must 'find themselves.' You hear it all around you. . . ."

"Look,
Gail." Roark got up, reached out, tore a thick branch off a tree, . . . [and] bent the branch slowly into an arc. "Now I can make what I want of it: a bow, a spear, a cane, a railing.

That's the meaning of life."

"Your strength?"

"Your work. . . .
The material the earth offers you and what you make of it. . . . "                                                                                                                           (page 596, emphasis added)

 

Rand seems to be saying that the natural world and a human being in it is a setting sufficient for making meaning. She seems to be saying, furthermore, that work, utilitarian or artistic, is the way in which humans make meaning in their lives. They don't have to be focussed on those projects as meaning-making. They can be focussed on the work and the enjoyment it makes possible. But a sense of meaning will be one of the benefits of engaging in work, understood broadly.

 

Do you think, as Rand seems to think, that one cannot find meaning in anything but work (utilitarian or artistic)?

 

Do you think that work becomes even more meaningful by some of the social connectedness it may afford? Is the brotherhood of joint production an amplifier of meaning? Is the sharing of an artistic or intellectual creation an amplifier of meaning? Is the willingness of consumers to pay for one's product or service an amplifier of meaning?

 

I'm not being rhetorical. I'm simply interested in what you and readers think on these questions.


Post 1

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
That article describes the typical contemporary philosophy of the anti-theist species of atheist.

The first mistaken premise is *I* should have purpose and meaning - that God should have given me an instruction manual. But since I don't have one, and no divine authority it around to answer questions, life is meaningless because I wasn't created for a purpose.

We start out, basically as animals, and learn to become rational animals. Children and savages have no need of meaning or purpose. They just need to satisfy primal drives. Civilized people need meanings and purposes.

The first, primary meaning and purpose is to live, and to do well at it. To this end we subdue nature. And after nature, our own weak nature, and that of others.

Evil exists because it can, there is a niche for it. And those practicing evil learn to do well at it, whether disease viri, tyrants or gangs of thugs.

The second errant premise is a larger context, which transcends our own life isn't, even if not necessary, important.

It is important, because it is motivating and advantageous, to believe in a greater context. Our consciousness is a little piece of the action of existence existing. I may not have been deliberately created for a purpose by a sentient being, as theists believe, but I am here for a *cause* which I did not initiate, and my actions to perfect my life are part of the process which existence is existing for.

The universe is wonderfully immense, and those that appreciate it appreciate themselves, and will have the meaning and purpose of increasing its value by creating great things. One can look back at the past, at how humanity has learned by object lessons to overcome its weaknesses and faults, and can only guess at what wonders will come about in the future.

(This is the value derived from theist "worship" services.)

Concluding, I think it is stupid and destructive to think of oneself as separate from existence, the universe, rather than a very rare and powerful particle and phase of it. Yes, there is a difference between things which live and things which don't. But they are made of the same stuff, which becomes alive. My consciousness, with its memories, end with my death. But *I* (the universe) go on.

There is a lot of chaos, sound and fury going on, but what is important, the works of Aristotle, Maxwell, Einstein, et. , not idiots, continue on and signify much.

Scott

Post 2

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 6:37pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
That article describes the typical contemporary philosophy of the anti-theist species of atheist.
Not only that, but it does it better than I've ever read it anywhere else before. Scott, who is your audience?

Post 3

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There can be no meaning of life outside of the meaning we create for ourselves because the universe is not a sentient being that can attribute values to things.


This is completely subjective axiom, yet it is the rational conclusion we're suppose to draw from Rand's Objectivism. Such a paradox shows where some of Rand's reasoning begins to break down, especially in her writings on morality. "What is the moral way for man to behave?" "That which furthers the life of man qua man?" "What then is 'qua man', the nature he is to live up to?" "That which furthers the life of man qua man." This reasoning is circular, and as quoted above, "qua man" ends up meaning values which spring up innately out of man's consciousness. Such a conclusion may make sense if we take a hedonistic view of morality--that the values that man will subjectively create are those which tend to bring pleasure to all human organisms, an objective standard. Yet Rand emphatically rejected hedonism as a confusion of the purpose of ethics with the standard of ethics. Was she rash in doing so?

To be consistent with an objective universe, one should conclude that man and the world around him is structured in such a way so that, if man acts a certain way, he will experienced maximized happiness. It is an objective standard based on nature, not on what is innately in man. It could then be said that "survival as man qua man" is a description, but not a definition, of morality.



Post 4

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 10:42pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

The anti-theist I had in mind was the "you're a dirty bag of accidental dirty salt-water" professing, relativist, socialist, nihilist, ACLU flag-burning, (perhaps in some cases) God-died-at-Auschwitz (disaffected theist), liberal, tax-leeching college prof. The kind you see on TV; Alan Dershowitz, Al Frankin, George Carlin, et. The scoffer; plenty to criticize, will tear down mother-hood, God & country and not offer anything (such as Rand's rational egoism) to take its place.

My audience? Whomever cares to comment on my opinions! I post them here, because, to the extent I'm appreciated, I want to appreciate the the opinions of someone I appreciate - Ayn Rand.

Scott



Post 5

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 10:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Protragonist,

There can be no meaning of life outside of the meaning we create for ourselves because the universe is not a sentient being that can attribute values to things.


The universe may not be "sentient" as we, but it has values - energy potentials - charge, gravity, weak & strong forces, et. More advanced theories may change our scientific conception of these non-sentient "values" - motives that cause change, causes of the universes' lietmotif.

Because the universe has "values", sentient life has values.

"qua man" ends up meaning values which spring up innately out of man's consciousness.


"Nature to be commanded (according to values) must be obeyed".

Such a conclusion may make sense if we take a hedonistic view of morality--that the values that man will subjectively create are those which tend to bring pleasure to all human organisms, an objective standard. Yet Rand emphatically rejected hedonism as a confusion of the purpose of ethics with the standard of ethics. Was she rash in doing so?

Hedonism in the long-term is temperance - deferred gratification!

Scott

Post 6

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This article was revolutionary to me, and its one of my personal treasures.

I am extremely pleased with the author since he wrote this.

I am not really interested in what you have to say about it unless I have found that I can trust you.

I asked the author for permission to re-publish it here so that I could share it with you and so that you could have the opportunity to learn from it.

Post 7

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 12:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

I noticed since my previous remark (#0) that Rand also wrote a little about the meaning of the world and the human being in it in her fiction Anthem, which was written in 1937. In my 1946 edition of Anthem, Rand writes:

 

And now we look upon the earth and sky. This spread of naked rock and peaks and moonlight is like a world ready to be born, a world that waits. It seems to ask a sign from us, a spark, a first commandment. . . . It seems to say it has great gifts to lay before us, but it wishes a greater gift from us. We are to speak. We are to give its goal, its highest meaning to all this glowing space of rock and sky. (p. 84, emphasis added)

 

I stand here on the summit of the mountain. I lift my head and I spread my arms. This, my body and spirit, is the end of the quest. I wished to know the meaning of things. I am the meaning. (p. 86, emphasis added)

 

This view of meaning in the natural, bounded life of an individual human being is harmonious with the view Rand expressed in 1943 (post #0). The 1937 engagement with the human search for meaning is a precursor of the 1943 engagement.

 

One of Keith Augustine’s challenges in his article was to answer the impulse people have to find meaning in their existence by trying to look beyond nature. They seek life-meaning by seeing themselves as part of the value productions of a cosmic supernatural intelligence, which is God.

 

Rand’s 1937 and 1943 visions offer a naturalistic satisfaction of the human desire for life-meaning. Here is another, contrasting naturalistic vision some readers may enjoy. It is the closing paragraph of The Ontogeny of Information (1985) by Susan Oyama:

 

Can it be that if we really reinsert ourselves into the world, see our development, investigations and technological control as actions within a network that we support and alter and that supports and alters us, see freedom and responsibility not as denials of causality but as a particularly human acknowledgement of it, if we see nature, including our own, as multilayered and constructed in development, not prior to it, if we see the world as truly our home, . . . with all the loving reliance, multiple attachments, pride and farsighted maintenance that home entails, is it possible that we will no longer need a mystical hidden message? Is it possible that the only message is our lives in our world and the life of our world in its universe?


Post 8

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"...... the sun wheels swift from morn to morn,
And the world began when I was born,
And the world is mine to win."    [Badger Clark]


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 10:21pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This reminded me of something I wrote a week ago: "In class on Thursday morning, my philo class watched this show about sequencing the human genome. It showcased one of the active people involved, named Craig Venter. The show mentioned his need for speed, his need to be productive, his vision and bullet-train approach. That was only partly of what caught me. What really choked me up was when the itnerviewer asked Dr. Venter about a period of his life where he gave medical care to soldiers in war. The camera stayed on his face for a long, long time. And in that long, long time, it seemed like nothing was happening. Yet, everything was happening. I saw more in that long, long time than I’ve seen in the past year. I’m in the classroom but I didn’t see the classroom. Instead, I saw life and death flash before Venter’s face, in his eyes, in the way minute movements of his face expressed such deep emotion he could not speak. For a long, long time. He had the look of forever with a second left to live, in his eyes. Oh, I wish to see it again, and I wish never to see it again. I saw in him seeing things that maybe no one should ever see. I got it. I don’t know if my class did. I have never seen actualized death before my eyes. By actualized, I didn’t see someone die, expire, leave. But death is one thing that is not ignorable.

You see, Dr. Venter had perspective. He saw things, face-to-face. He saw how fleeting life was, how fragile. He saw time compressed down to seconds of life gasping, life heaving, life vaporizing, life leaving. I can see this, as I rush to do things, because I have that bit in me. It’s that bit that realizes what I’ve seen and how deep it went. It’s that bit that echoes through to me my doctors’ words, to me, as my lungs collapsed again and again: "If you had waited one more day, you would have been dead." It’s that bit that witnessed an attempted suicide. It’s that bit that saw life slipping away, mine, someone else’s. It’s that bit that wailed to my mother when I was eight and she had to take me to the hospital because my lungs collapsed "I don’t want to die!" over and over. I knew death when I was eight. My parents know death. We want to live. We have that between us. Despite our battles, we have that.

I do what I can so that I might live as I wish, and then so that I can help others who want to live, *live*. Right now, I see my mom’s face when I cried that; so terrible her expression. I know she loves me by those moments, even if we don’t agree. I see Dr. Venter’s face now. I see my own face mirrored in my doctor’s eyes. There is so much more to life, something else, some kind of beauty thrown into contrast by seeing death. Some kind of purity, not mystical unattainment, but the tactileness of bright flowers. Something. It’s there, available, bright, shining. So, I am afraid of not living enough. I am afraid of lying on my deathbed wishing I had lived more. I am afraid of being dragged down to where I cannot see life’s beauty. That’s why I talk about it like the way I do. And like Dr. Venter, I’m on high speed to live. I want to reach the heights of life, because I’ve seen death hovering too close."

Post 10

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

“our lives matter a great deal to us. If they did not, we would not find the idea of our own death so distressing--it wouldn't matter that our lives will come to an end”

A superb point and one I hit on frequently.  To truly value life one must feel inversely about it’s cessation.  Life is the source of all of our values and its cessation is the destruction of all our values.  I think to truly recognize the finality and horror of death is an extremely difficult thing and leads a great many people to devalue their life or to delude themselves into thinking that death serves some purpose.  I have elaborated on these feelings before on this forum in other threads.

 

“If the absence of a higher purpose is what makes life ultimately meaningless, our lives would be just as meaningless if they were eternal”

 Another excellent point I will remember whenever I hear anyone fretting about the meaningless of life, thank you for that.

 

“Conversely, if being part of a higher purpose gives our lives meaning, then our lives would be meaningful even if death ended them forever.”


Another great point and this seems to almost always be the root justification for life people grant themselves.  To ‘leave the world a better place’ or to ‘make a difference’ and no doubt the drive to do this is because they think life a waste without making other peoples lives better.  However I am quick to point out that this is just another form of collectivism, it is valuing the self only for the effect one has on future individuals.  It is not living for the sake of other men now, but every other man who will be.  My mother was involved in local politics her whole life and did a few runs as a city clerk and founded two historical preservations societies, when she retired the democrats of the area held a dinner in her honor where some two or three hundred people showed up.  She felt as though this justified everything she had done, and quoted one of her favorite poets saying something along those lines, that life is what you do for others or the future.  This gave her a great deal of pleasure when she tried to reconcile nearing retirement with little savings and working what she feels a demeaning job.  I am always quick and adamant on pointing out that it is very wrong to think her life worthless unless she had accomplished some great thing, her life has value to her of it’s own accord and is not something we are granted by the universe in order to accomplish something.  This attitude, that life is worthless unless served for a higher purpose, is what states have used to justify murdering millions.  It is to the benefit of the exploiters to convince you your life is worthless unless you serve what they have convinced you are higher callings.  I try to convey to her that all of her actions she did to uphold the things she valued most, to further what is dearest to her, and doing so is right and just.  But she still doesn’t seem to see it as worthwhile until a dinner is thrown in her honor.

 

I am an extremely ambitious person and literally do want to change the world and I am pursuing my 50 year plan to do so, but I am the first to jump on someone for demanding someone ‘serve the greater good’ to justify their life, because the intrinsic philosophic premise that is implied, that life is worthless unless serving some higher goal, is so horrific.  As you so eloquently state “Our activities are worthwhile for their own sake, not because they fulfill some unknowable transcendental purpose”

 

Michael F Dickey 


Post 11

Monday, August 2, 2010 - 12:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I like to come back to this article once in a while and re-evaluate what I am doing with my life.

Post 12

Monday, August 2, 2010 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The answer to the questions "Why am I here?" and "What am I supposed to be doing now as a result of that?" is our life; no more, no less.

We answer those questions, even when we don't ask them, simply by living.

Pointless? Hopeless? Meaningless, and built on a foundation of unyielding despair?

No doubt that can be and is the answer of some. On what basis would anyone ever assert that is 'the' answer for all, or even, that there exists a singular answer for all, no matter what that answer is?

Personal definition of horror: wasting my one and only life looking for a OneSizeFitsAll Answer For All, the belief in which is likely a complete myth.


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 13

Thursday, January 26, 2012 - 12:39amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm 42, when I was 33 I had a 100% block left circumflex artery..yup should have been dead according to the dr's.
Couple of years ago my car and I got clipped by a semi truck again..should statistically have been dead. I actually walked away from that with some bruises and minor lacerations.

Needless to say I kiss my wife and hug my son like every day is my last because when you come so close to dying you indeed wake up every day just happy to be alive.

No matter what kind of shitstorm I might be going through with work or any other stress that is indeed part of life I'm just glad to be experiencing it.

So to those who do not have a sense of life, to those that feel that they must suffer in the muck and live that righteous life serving everyone else but themselves and finally die beforee their life has meaning...have at it just leave me out of it I'm too busy being happy and fulfilled nowwww.

Some great insights on this thread!

Sanction: 21, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 21, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 21, No Sanction: 0
Post 14

Thursday, January 26, 2012 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jules:

When we are young and invincible, we are convinced that we are riding our surf boards far from the rocks waiting for us on some distant someday shore.

Inevitably, something happens to us or someone close to us sufficient to make us realize that we are never far from those rocks, and that every single second of the ride is a near miracle, not to be taken for granted.

Those of us who are lucky, survive that inevitable something and enjoy the rest of our uncounted moments for what they are; amazing long shots of existence in this universe, every day of which is an unbelievable gift.

Sure, it often ends with a rocky landing. And we don't always get to call ahead and choose our demise, like life is some giant take out joint. ("I'll take the easy landing, please.")

Well, here's to yelling 'Yahoo!' the whole way, even though we know that.

It's part of what makes us human.

regards,
Fred





Post 15

Friday, January 27, 2012 - 9:03amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It can be a long ride if you take care of yourselves:

Muscle Mass in Masters Athletes 

(Edited by Mike Erickson on 1/27, 7:57pm)


Post 16

Saturday, January 28, 2012 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks for the link, Mike.  Old age is not for sissies...  There is the fact that you discover that you spent all that extra time at the gym or running or whatever, but, yes, clearly, we have some control over our physical destiny.

From a sociology paper on Aging that I posted to my blog:  "The first Boston Marathon measured 24.5 miles. “On April 19, 1897, John J. McDermott of New York, emerged from a 15-member starting field and captured the first B.A.A. Marathon in 2:55:10.”   In 2006, that mark would place him 5th among the women age 40-49 (Gina M. McGee, 2:55:03).  However, the modern race is longer.  Therefore, today, McDermott would beat all of the women 50-59, but none of the women 40-49.  His time calculated for the longer course would be the same as John Smallwood, in the Men’s Age 60-69 who clocked 3:10:44."

Live as well as you can, we are all nonetheless done too soon.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/28, 12:05pm)


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 17

Friday, July 17, 2015 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

 

“The cub was learning. . . . He was realizing his own meaning in the world; he was doing that for which he was made—killing meat and battling to kill it. He was justifying his existence, than which life can do no greater; for life achieves its summit when it does to the utter-most that which it was equipped to do.”

White Fang – Jack London



Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.