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Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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The problem I have with determinism is in the details. Every entity has a set of properties that are invariant per a given set of parameters, therefore every entity operates per those properties and their parameters? Yes, but the detail that is missing is that these properties and parameters are not inherent to every given entity, thus different entities can have different properties and parameters.

Also, entities of certain properties can alter their non-fundamental behavior. Notice I said non-fundamental here. What I mean by that is certain properties designate the behaviors of an entity to which we can identify that entity by. These behaviors that will never change so long as the entity exists. To define humans, we look at certain properties that allow for us to be called human: upright walking, instrumentality, abstract/conceptual thought processes, and so on. Now, lets look at conceptual thinking, that's the elemental property of humans on Earth which really defines our species, and one thing that is important to conceptual thinking is that we have to focus our awareness on that which we want to learn of/about. This in itself implies free will, specifically that free will is not merely the chance to act otherwise, rather it is the chance to think otherwise. To learn. To mentally evolve. Most animals on Earth cannot do this. They are either governed by the moment or by instinct, or a combination of the two so that the vast majority of their behavior is outside of conceptual thought.

This is the key problem in the arguments against free will, they try to redefine the rules by negating the function of free will, which as I defined prior. Every time I hear someone say I cannot think otherwise, I ask them then why can anyone imagine a world differently? Why can one compose modal logic so easily? Why can one imagine how the world might be if Bush lost the '04 election and Kerry won? Or if Hitler won against Russia and stayed back the the Allied Forces in Europe? And so on. These examples imply free will in the strongest sense of the term of this ability to think otherwise [*to learn*].

-- Bridget

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Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for an excellent article about this fascinating and important topic. I especially like your observation in the second-to-last paragraph, in which you point out that freely chosen behavior could leave traces on the physical brain, in which repetition developes into habit. This is an idea that has occured to me, as for example when I read news articles about some facet of human behavior as having been supposedly proven to be genetically based.

A prime example of this fashionable intellectual assault on human volition is the continuing effort to prove that homosexuality reflects one's genetic history, through studies of the behavior of twins, of identical twins, of siblings, of second siblings, and so forth. Although I haven't read these studies, it has occured to me that a heightened statistical correlation of homosexuality among, say, twins could simply reflect the sharing by the twins of certain emotional-physical characteristics that make them more vulnerable emotionally to inappropriate sexual/emotional stress as children. Other children exposed to similar unfortunate experience might recover from the emotional assault more easily. Whether a younster were overwhelmed emotionally and cognitively by a tramatic event, or recovered his equilibrium more readily in the wake of such trauma, would clearly influence the difficulty that the youngster would face in forming realistic or unrealistic conclusions about himself. Of course, there is a powerful tendency for children to incorporate their ideas about themselves into subsequent behavior, shaping subsequent emotional response.

No doubt the tendency among intellectuals to disparage free will flows primarily from prior misconceptions in philosophy. However, I think this tendency is powerfully reinforced by political incentives. Gays, for example, are treated as political mascots by the Left, whose spokespeople are hostile to evidence that homosexual behavior is often associated with suffering and torment, markers of abnormal behavior. The Left is unconcerned about whether or not sexual confusion yields suffering among gays. What concerns the Left is the right pitch to attract gays to their banner. So the Left pitches the idea that gay behavior is normal, which is to say, beyond choice. Anyone who questions or challenges this line is viewed as a moral reptile. Which only reinforces my conviction about the role political incentives play in this drama.


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Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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Mr Humphrey,

I am not sure of your stance on the matter, but I can assure you that the fact that I find the smell of men attractive is neither a matter of choice nor biologically undetermined. Now, of course, I do have the choice as to whether to deny my own nature, to attempt celibacy, to accept my nature and pursue worthy partners, or to copulate with sheep.

I freely chose the second to the last alternative.

And the left can jump in a lake.

Ted Keer

Post 3

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 6:54pmSanction this postReply
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Humphrey, as for homosexuality. Choice or not, if the person does so with consent of his/her partner, then what is the immorality of it? They don't have kids, is that it? What obligation does one have to others to propagate the species? Aren't there enough people to fill this role aptly? Ultimately, any argument against homosexuality, choice or not, is doomed to failure since it assumes certain things as automatically true without validation through proof or fact.

-- Bridget

Post 4

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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Nothing in my earlier post should be construed as critcism of gays.

I don't think of homosexual activity as immoral, because I think (or assume) that gays experience restricted or distorted emotional responses that exist beyond their knowlege to change. One ought to accept one's best perception of one's nature--an act that, as long as its consequences are peaceful, should never be morally censured. 

I regret having raised the subject, which always evokes understandably strong feelings. I do apologize to anyone whom I inadvertently offended.  


Post 5

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 9:22pmSanction this postReply
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No bad feelings, and I am very personally critical of both the "gay" identity mongers and of faulty science used to back up political agendas.

What I find personally relevant is that one's response to pheromones (which is chemically mediated and genetically "determined" if I am not using to strong a word) leads to homosexuality in the same way that a taste for sugar leads to a penchant for candy. One need not indulge, but the biological underpinnings are there. I knew I was bisexual at six years old, but if I had a choice, would have chosen the security of drab heterosexuality. And I would perhaps be a Buchanan voter today if I were straight.

I see the inclination and the lifestyle as two separate phenomena on two very different levels. The Caesars were mostly facultatively bisexual, this only rarely made them vote for Hillary Clinton in the primaries.

Ted Keer


Post 6

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 9:34pmSanction this postReply
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As for free will itself, are we, or are we not, our bodies? If so, is not free-will an emergent property of our bodies? Nothing in quantuum physics explains the quality of triangularity or the potential of balls to roll. Why should we assume human free will to be reducible a priori to purportedly deterministic small-scale phenomena like quantuum physics?

Free will is utimately a moral concept, not a metaphysical one. Free will is why we punish criminals, not a chemical substance or a mathematical equation.

The fact that it is perplexing from a scientific point of view is no more shocking than the fact that acceleration was perplexing before Newton and heat before Carnot. At this point, we know that the phenomenon is real, and that we must deal with it. One day, we will have the concepts and the knowledge to make it a little less mysterious, perhaps. But even then, the human mind is designed to manipulate the world on the scale at which we live. If we were the size of stars the big-bang might not seem so strange. If we were atomies perhaps we would have an intuitive grasp of quantuum mechanics. The fact that we are perplexed by free will doesn't perplex me at all.

Ted Keer

Post 7

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 10:27pmSanction this postReply
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>>Free will is utimately a moral concept, not a metaphysical one. Free will is why we punish criminals, not a chemical substance or a mathematical equation.

In part I would agree, but there's something problematic in saying it's only an ethical principle because where did it come from? It has to have some basic metaphysical property tied to it that allows it to give rise into rational beings capable of ethical theories. In short, the ability to think otherwise [to learn] is clearly at the scale of a metaphysical property since it allows us to categorize the human animal as a rational being. The specific mechanics of it may not be fully understood, but its existence is apparent in the same manner as the property of inertia.

-- Bridget

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Post 8

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 12:49amSanction this postReply
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The idea that free will is a moral concept is a category mistake. A moral concept would have to have some component involving "ought" or "ought not." Such as "cheating" or "loyalty." Whereas "free will" has no such component. It means, rather, some capacity to do or not to do X, to take the initiative, for better or for worse; which is to say, having free will is morally neutral, like having a good singing voice.

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Post 9

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 5:11amSanction this postReply
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In Post 1, MH wrote:
A prime example of this fashionable intellectual assault on human volition is the continuing effort to prove that homosexuality reflects one's genetic history, through studies of the behavior of twins, of identical twins, of siblings, of second siblings, and so forth.
My life would be far simpler if I had no sex drive -- no hunger for the sexual company of a woman.

To claim homosexual orientation results from volition would imply that heterosexual orientation also results from volition.  I find that claim absurd on its face and unworthy of further consideration.  It resembles the claim that hunger results from volition or a strong enjoyment of the taste of chocolate results from volition.

I am not saying that we have no choice to pursue or not pursue goals aligning with those strong preferences.  I am saying that the hungers or urges themselves arise from something pre-volitional.  All we can do with our volition is to focus on them or away from them and employ reason to determine the benefits or detriments of achieving such goals.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 3/07, 5:13am)


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Post 10

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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As I understand it, this is what current research supports:  Homosexuality can be genetic based, situational (e.g., prisons), or a psychological induced phenomena.  My understanding is that it is usually a genetic difference and that the psychologically induced same-sex attraction is the least frequently seen.  Keep in mind that this wasn't an area I studied, or specialized in when I was in practice.

If this were an area of interest for me, I'd be looking at each of the layers - situational (including the culture or subculture), the psychological layers for the individual, and the genetic component.  Very complex issue.

Luke says,
"To claim homosexual orientation results from volition would imply that heterosexual orientation also results from volition.  I find that claim absurd on its face and unworthy of further consideration.  It resembles the claim that hunger results from volition or a strong enjoyment of the taste of chocolate results from volition."
Both arguments have problems.  It is possible for a heterosexual orientation to be repressed and a psychological 'obsession' with some other attractor to become the over-riding focus or orientation (althought this seems to be so only a tiny percentage of the time.)  And we have a range of urges: physical sensations, feeling states, moods, emotions, habitual urges, positive and negative self-esteem states, etc.) and volition was the initial input out of which we formed many of what later became emotions, urges, etc.  

I certainly agree with Tibor on the issue of free-will not being a moral concept.  I'm a little uncomfortable with part of his answer though. The exercise of our will is of value and there is a moral difference in the way free will is exercised.  We "ought" to exercise our free will.  The root of many of our problems might be traced to not focusing when we should have.  It is the source of values since without it we could not choose.  But I agree that it is a capacity and a property of consciousness - it is metaphysical.


Post 11

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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You can generate plans, predict the results of each plan, compare the results, and decide to execute some of them. You can use emotions more or less instead of predicting a plan's results. You can use habits (doing whatever you have done in a past similar context) more or less instead of generating and choosing plans. There is an infinite number of generatable plans. Some people are quicker/slower at generating/comparing/executing useful/useless (using their goals as a judgment of utility) plans.

A goal is a thing that one acts to attain or keep. An example of a goal would be to enjoy today and ensure your own health and safety for the next few days/weeks/months/years. Goals are generated and chosen just as plans are. There is an infinite number of generatable goals. Some people are quicker/slower at generating/comparing/executing useful/useless goals.

Living is self-sustaining self-generated action. If you don't have the goal to live, then you will die pretty soon, so you don't run into many people who don't have the goal to live at least in the short term. We are the product of billions of generations of altered copies of previous things that ended up choosing to live and reproduce... and since our bodies were created with mostly the same plans (DNA) as our ancestors, we'll probably have living as a goal too. You probably also have the goal to reproduce, or at least you have some urges to perform the actions that result in reproducing... for the same reason.

Other those two primary goals (to live and mate), we may practically randomly generate plans and goals from the infinite set of goals and plans generatable. While doing this generation, we may focus more on things that catch our attention or have something to do with other goals we have. Sometimes we put more priority and focus on goal/plan generation then others.

Have I said anything yet that is inconsistent with determinism or inconsistent with free will?
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/07, 1:47pm)


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Post 12

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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Free Will as Meta-Ethical

Okay, of course volition and life and valuing are all existential phenomena, and as such should be explored by the branch of metaphysics which I myself would call cosmology, which subsumes psychology. (This is not Rand's, but my classification.) Volition occurs in humans, and humans are physical beings, so volition cannot contradict the laws of physics - indeed it supervenes upon the laws of physics.

But the freedom of the will, while perplexing, is only of philosophical importance because we are ethical creatures. Otherwise, free will might be seen as something akin to radioactive decay, a curiosity for certain specialists. But while radioactive decay is not a matter of concern to philosophy as a discipline comprhensible to laymen, free-will is.

I am most certainly not making a category mistake, since I know that free will is a faculty, or a potential, not a location or an entity. I will concede that since I am reluctant for prioprietary reasons to spell out my entire theory of the will here, I am open to misinterpretation. But I think that a rereading of my first post with the following clarification:

(1.0) Free will is utimately a moral concept, not a metaphysical one.
(1.1) The freedom of the will is utimately of importance as a moral concept, not a metaphysical one.


will show that I have not said anything that necessarily contradicts Rand.

Ted Keer

Post 13

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 8:31pmSanction this postReply
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Upon second reading I have sanctioned Bridget's post #0 for the interestingly original argument of its last paragraph. Bridget, is this your own innovation?

I sanctioned Luke's post #9 for its last two paragraphs which make, in a much more restrained way, the argument I was trying to put forth in the mercifully quiescent "Limits of Rational Self-Interest" thread

Ted

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 3/07, 8:36pm)


Post 14

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 8:31pmSanction this postReply
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I could agree to those terms, Ted. Good show.

-- Bridget

Post 15

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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Re Post 13:

Not really, I just considered the implication of how Rand and other Objectivists defined free will as the means to focus one's thoughts, so that in itself implies the freedom to think otherwise. I think Rand referenced this many times in Atlas Shrugged, but I can't remember where other than the famous "there are no contradictions" quotation as one instance that suggested this formulation.

-- Bridget

Post 16

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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I think your formulation, or at least the idea of the absurdity that "one couldn't have thought otherwise" is original and well put. I remember reading the argument that one might ask a professor who advocated determinism whether or not he did so of his free will. This is a self-refuting proof of the axiomaticity of free will. But your statement that it applies more broadly to all counterfactuals, and even to the fact that we construct counterfactuals seems both independent and original. I was hoping you weren't going to tell me you got it from Witgenstein.

Ted

Post 17

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 11:56pmSanction this postReply
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Tibor writes,
Anytime we hold people responsible, or urge that they alter their conduct, resist a temptation, battle some bad habit, and so forth, the free will idea lurks in the background. The criminal and even tort law, of course, assumes people could have done otherwise than they did, all things being equal. Politics, with all of its blaming and praising, is in the same situation, as is personal morality where none of it would make sense unless we had the capacity to choose how we act and thus can be faulted for failing to do what’s right. As the famous German philosopher Immanuel Kant said, "ought" implies "can."
To be sure, "ought" implies "can," but "can" doesn't imply free will, at least not the libertarian kind that Objectivism endorses. For example, I can say that you "ought" to hold a certain set of beliefs, which of course implies that you "can" hold them, but it doesn't imply that you're free to choose them in the sense that, all things being equal, you could have chosen otherwise. All it implies is that you're capable of adopting those beliefs, given a certain level of knowledge and understanding, which you may not presently possess. I can say, for example, that you "ought" to have chosen a different answer on a test, even though you thought it was the wrong answer and therefore could not have chosen it, given your knowledge and understanding at the time.

Do criminal and tort law assume that people could have done otherwise, all things being equal? I don't see how. Suppose a Christian fundamentalist is so committed to defending innocent human life that he bombs an abortion clinic. Does the fact that he saw no reason to abstain from committing the crime and therefore could not have done otherwise absolve him of responsibility under the law? I don't think so. All that is required to hold him liable for the crime is that he deliberately chose it. That he could not have chosen otherwise, because he saw no reason to is not enough to get him off the hook. The rationale of punishment is deterrence; its purpose is to send a message to the criminal and others like him that if one commits the crime, then one will suffer the consequences. Thus, punishment is motivational; its goal is to provide a would-be criminal with a sufficient reason not to do what he would otherwise have a reason to do in the absence of the punishment.

Granted, a person cannot be held responsible unless he could have chosen otherwise if he had wanted to. So if he was coerced at gunpoint into committing the crime, then his will was not involved, and he cannot be held liable. But if he chose the action without being coerced, then even though he could not have chosen otherwise given his value judgments, he can still be held accountable for the act and punished accordingly.

As for praising and blaming, we praise people for making choices that we approve of and blame them for making choices we disapprove of, even though they may have had no reason to choose otherwise, given their value judgments.
[T]oday there is widespread consensus among both the scientists and philosophers that the determinism that says all of what we do has to happen as it does and our minds are not in control of our actions seem to carry the day.
To say that all of what we do has to happen as it does is not to say that our minds are not in control of our actions. Our minds are indeed in control of our actions in the sense of determining what those actions will be, but that does not mean that we could have chosen otherwise. I may be in control of my car in the sense of keeping it in the righthand lane, but that does not mean that I could just as well have chosen to drive it into oncoming traffic, an action which would surely be suicidal and one which I have no desire to perform.
Too much in our lives is unpredictable quite apart from free will and how we will act in light of such events then could hardly be predicted.
I agree, but determinism does not imply predictability. Human action is far too complicated to be capable of the kind of prediction that we apply to the behavior of inanimate objects, but that does not mean that it is not subject to the law of causal necessity. The necessity is simply too sophisticated to predict with any kind of precision. Still, a certain amount of prediction is possible. If I know someone's value judgments, I can (within certain limits) predict what choices he or she will make. And I can predict how people in general will behave. For example, I can predict that, with very few exceptions, they will stop at stoplights; they will open their stores at a certain time and close them at a certain time, and so on. Human action is not an exception to the principle of necessity in causation, but that does not mean that we must jettison the concepts of choice, moral responsibility or criminal liability.

- Bill




Post 18

Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 9:59amSanction this postReply
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What does "free will" mean again?

Post 19

Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
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My version or?

-- Bridget

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