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Post 140

Monday, February 13, 2012 - 12:07pmSanction this postReply
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William, I appreciate the fact that you are able to approach this topic and represent my views with objectivity. 

And before people start attacking him for failing to denounce me with sufficient vitriol, he has made it clear that his views on politics and morality differ from mine, or at least they did some months ago when we last argued over them (and I doubt I changed his mind).

I have stated that I disagree with some of Rand's views on morality.  For that reason, I don't call myself an Objectivist.  I do think that Rand would judge my views and manner of communicating them as being more consistent with Objectivism, especially its metaphysics and epistemology, than the philosophies exhibited by many of the contributors to this forum.  She would not take kindly to people calling themselves Objectivists while rejecting its content and approach.


Post 141

Monday, February 13, 2012 - 2:42pmSanction this postReply
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Post 142

Monday, February 13, 2012 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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Brad wrote,
The notion that race is observable in all organs of the body...except the brain...is an irrational one, especially in light of the fact that modern skull measurements show clearly identifiable racial traits on virtually every major feature of the skull, from eye orbits to teeth (Gould and others who attempted to defend egalitarian views of cranial capacity have long since been exposed as frauds by modern science, which you again must reject in order to deny the existence of racial variations).
Brad, I still don't understand your argument for racial differences in cranial capacity, since these differences do not vary uniformly from race to race. People of different races can have the same cranial capacity, and people of the same race, different cranial capacities. People of different races can have the same IQ, and people of the same race, different IQ's. One of my fellow students in graduate school was a black guy from Jamaica, who was a member of Mensa. I couldn't get into Mensa if my life depended on it. I guess my cranial capacity and skull configuration must have been inferior to his. Bummer! ;-)

Seriously, are you simply saying that average differences across racial groups are observable? If so, that may be true, but again, it says nothing about any given individual. So what is the payoff in making these racial distinctions? What are the implications for moral judgment, philosophy or politics? None that I can see, since everyone must be judged on his or her individual merits, has the same rights regardless of race or ethnicity, and can be held to the same moral and political standards.

(Edited by William Dwyer on 2/13, 4:25pm)


Post 143

Monday, February 13, 2012 - 6:54pmSanction this postReply
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William,

I have addressed these questions before.  Yes, racial variations in brain size and IQ are just averages and there is much overlap on an individual basis. 

Philosophically, recognition of racial realities precedes any discussion of the moral and political implications of racial realities.  You can't use individualist ethics (or Nazi ethics or any ethics) to prescribe any particular set of attributes onto races in relation to one another. 

Because racial variations are mostly matters of degree and largely overlap, there is no basis for any kind of group-inclusive moral or legal supremacy.  Frederick Douglass' white slave master was probably less apt mentally than Douglass.   

In a free-market economy, racial variations will express themselves in predictable racial orderings in terms of athletic and academic achievement and income levels.  These inequalities are symptoms of freedom.  Equality is artificial, and its pursuit is always and everywhere the enemy of freedom.  Embracing inequality because it is natural requires an understanding of from where inequalities derive.  That's what this is about.


Post 144

Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 12:08amSanction this postReply
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This will probably be my last post to this thread. 

My latest video puts all the pieces on race and intelligence together in the entertaining form of a refutation of a wacky atheist who claims that evolution in the brain stopped 200,000 years ago.  I also introduce some fascinating scientific findings (sourced within the video) about the Neanderthal DNA carried by all Eurasians.  

My youtube fans seem to think it's my best work on the subject.  I won't outdo myself anytime soon, if ever.  So as far as I'm concerned, this is it:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRaAvCBAlso


Post 145

Thursday, March 1, 2012 - 4:24pmSanction this postReply
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Since this is Dissent I feel comfortable speaking freely. Some of you might ask: "Speak freely? When did you stop?" 

:-)

I have a funny feeling. I get those from time to time. It's like I have "Spidey-sense" or something. I can see a conspiracy coming from miles away. Yes, that means I will make mistakes. Sometimes, I will say that there is probably a conspiracy when -- in reality -- there is nothing of the sort going on. I'm guessing that as much as 90% of all of my conspiracy theories are nothing other than pure, untethered fantasy. But part of my mental habit is to link things. It is about association. Here is my mini-conspiracy theory regarding one Brad Trun:

Trun is likely a covert operative, sent here in order to discredit Objectivists/Objectivism with a guilt-by-association charge. Left-liberals do this at conservative rallies. They pretend to be conservatives and then they purposely go over the top with their signs and get on TV. Did you ever see the sign?:
"I want the government out of my Medicare!"
That was probably carried by a covert liberal. But I digress.


Anyway, what I cannot help noticing is that it is on the very day where Google starts spying on us (building elaborate files on virtually every internet user, and then using artificial intelligence to cross-reference web-use data for each person or group) -- on that day --Brad tells us that we have all got to go and check out his 'very best-of-the-best' YouTube video.

Things that make you go: "hmmm."

:-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/01, 6:46pm)


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Post 146

Thursday, March 1, 2012 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
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heh, ye caught that, huh....;-)

Post 147

Thursday, March 1, 2012 - 6:28pmSanction this postReply
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Lol I did indeed!
Didn't I mention something along those lines a couple of weeks ago? Well i also said stuff that wasnt called for so I asked Tess to delete for me ty Tess.

Post 148

Thursday, March 1, 2012 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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Damn you, Jules! You probably planted the idea in my head.

:-)

And once an idea gets into your head, it can sometimes be hard to get it back out. But seriously, I never fully recovered after watching Brad's first YouTube video link (videotaped while looking into a mirror). It reminded me of stuff you see in horror films, where it's steamy in the bathroom, and you turn your head, and then look back into the mirror and wipe off the steam and ... look out, someone's behind you!

Aaaaaaaaagh!

:-)

Ed


Post 149

Thursday, March 1, 2012 - 7:07pmSanction this postReply
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O man That damn Julian Jaynes theory of vestiges of the bicameral mind! I would have loved to see him finish the second follow up book on his theories. It explains alot on why stuff freaks us out!!!
Reminds me of that movie " Candyman" when he appears behind you in the mirror! Another movie that gives ya the creeps is "The Grudge"

Post 150

Friday, March 2, 2012 - 11:11amSanction this postReply
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Bill

Seriously, are you simply saying that average differences across racial groups are observable? If so, that may be true, but again, it says nothing about any given individual. So what is the payoff in making these racial distinctions? What are the implications for moral judgment, philosophy or politics? None that I can see, since everyone must be judged on his or her individual merits, has the same rights regardless of race or ethnicity, and can be held to the same moral and political standards.

Brad

In a free-market economy, racial variations will express themselves in predictable racial orderings in terms of athletic and academic achievement and income levels. These inequalities are symptoms of freedom. Equality is artificial, and its pursuit is always and everywhere the enemy of freedom. Embracing inequality because it is natural requires an understanding of from where inequalities derive. That's what this is about.

Of course, you're both right and Objectivists will always reject the collectivization concept of judging an individual by the characteristics of a group, but not recognizing that various groups have different characteristics is to deny the very concept of what a group is, i.e. the characteristics define the group. But it strikes me that the opponents of Brad Trun on this forum reject any acknowledgement that racial groups exist. I attribute this to the same political correctness that we observe in the liberal camp ... "I'm a good person, but I don't trust others to be as nice as I am so I'll put on the blinkers and condemn others who make any distinctions of race whatsoever."

I come to my opinions from being severely reprimanded by a liberal friend for my innocently observing that "blacks have great teeth." It was merely a statement of fact. How can a person be faulted by making a statement of fact that isn't even faintly derogatory?

Sam


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Post 151

Friday, March 2, 2012 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
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Sam,

It was likely just a knee-jerk reaction to what your friend thought was an intentionally offensive remark (to some people, it would be offensive since the remark suggested a certain group was likely to possess a certain characteristic). In the quest for absolute equality, no distinctions (between groups of people) can be made.

However, there is another reason some people seek to erase distinctions. One that comes immediately to mind is the preservation of a groups' rights. If distinctions are avoided, and all people are viewed as the same, people will view each other as having the same rights. However, if distinctions come into play, some people may use this as grounds to violate another groups' rights. These right violators will then attempt to justify their actions by claiming that group differences mean different rights. It's is a "We vs. they" mentality. The distinctions causing the split between people. If no distinctions existed, then no split would exist, and, thus, no group could use that excuse to attack another.

Instead of blurring the distinctions between groups, those people who wish to defend rights should establish rights as the natural consequence of having the capacity to choose. Something slight distinctions such as skin color couldn't erase.


(Edited by Kyle Jacob Biodrowski on 3/02, 3:42pm)


Post 152

Friday, March 2, 2012 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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Kyle:

In the quest for absolute equality, no distinctions (between groups of people) can be made.
 If there are no distinctions between groups then there can be no groups, as groups are characterized by their differences. I'm really trying to get my head around this. Are you arguing that I should ignore that there are elderly people, young people, handicapped people? Are you suggesting that I ignore that certain people have traits in common? There are laws protecting juveniles because they can't be fully responsible for their actions. Are all the data miners out there immoral because they have certain target groups? 

One that comes immediately to mind is the preservation of a groups' rights. If distinctions are avoided, and all people are viewed as the same, people will view each other as having the same rights. However, if distinctions come into play, some people may use this as grounds to violate another groups' rights.
I'm surprised that you are using an argument of "group's rights." I firmly believed that members of this forum rejected out-of-hand the concept that groups have rights ... only individuals have rights.

To distinguish groups of people from groups of other kinds, such as trees or animals, makes no sense to me. It's an inhibition not to observe that "blacks have good teeth" or "white guys get sunburned easily." I reject the idea that one should censor one's thoughts or speech because someone else might violate another "group's" rights when the expression is factual and non-confrontational. Would you have the same argument if a black guy observed, to me, that white guys get sunburned easily? (I'm white.) The idea of me being offended is absurd.

Sam


Post 153

Friday, March 2, 2012 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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Sam wrote,
I come to my opinions from being severely reprimanded by a liberal friend for my innocently observing that "blacks have great teeth." It was merely a statement of fact. How can a person be faulted by making a statement of fact that isn't even faintly derogatory?
He was evidently objecting to what he perceived as stereotyping. But you're certainly not saying that every black person has great teeth. You're simply making a generalized observation. I guess you can't do that anymore, unless of course you're endorsing affirmative action. Then every member of a privileged group is a victim who deserves preferential treatment. In fact, whites are now considered disadvantaged relative to Asians, so they too deserve preferential treatment.

I once told a very liberal co-worker that I thought blacks had better bodies than whites, which is not always true, of course. He just smiled bemusedly.

When I was 12 years old, my dentist told me that I had yellow teeth; he said that that was because I was blond. He said blond people have yellow(er) teeth. He seemed to imply that nature had arranged it that way -- that yellower teeth match up better with blond hair. ??? I didn't quite follow that! He also said that blacks have whiter teeth, not simply because they appear whiter against their darker skin, but that their teeth actually are whiter. I imagine that your friend would find that objectionable too.

How about the claim that "white men can't jump"? How would he feel about that? Nobody seems to find that objectionable. Nor do they object to blonde jokes on the grounds that they stereotype the fair-haired unfairly.


Post 154

Sunday, March 4, 2012 - 4:23amSanction this postReply
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WD:"How about the claim that "white men can't jump"? How would he feel about that? Nobody seems to find that objectionable. Nor do they object to blonde jokes on the grounds that they stereotype the fair-haired unfairly."


I object.  I grant that you intentionally punned "fair."  We no longer say "that's very white of you" but it was an Americanism for about a hundred years.  The word "fair" is not so obvious, perhaps.

But I still object to blonde jokes, especially as they are mostly about blonde women, not blond men.  (Note that the final -e signifies the gender.)  Every time you tell a blonde joke, you empower the Taggart Board of Directors and put a block in front of the Vice President of Operations. 

I work for a multinational corporation.  In our orientation, we covered harrassment.  Sexual harrassment comes to mind easiest, of course.  "Race" (or ethnicity or national origin) and then religion come next.  But harrassment can be on any grounds and it can just be personal and individual.  Usually, though, it comes in unintended ways.  "These numbers don't seem kosher...  Oh, I was having a senior moment, must be Alzheimers ...  She should get the account because she's Asian and she understands the customers ... What are you doing for the holidays?" 

It seems harmless, but it is the origin of harm because collectivist thinking is prejudice and prejudice becomes discrimination.

Yes, people can be grouped many ways and those parameters define the group. But aside from the essential distinguishing characteristics, other characteristics will vary as greatly (or greater) within a group than across groups.  Ever been to a circus? A stock car race?  A baseball game?  I have never watched a Super Bowl. 

When I moved to Austin in September 2011, I joined a local Dungeons and Dragons crowd, the local Macintosh Users, and two groups of  numismatists, one regular "club" the other a dinner group.  Once a month, I have lunch with the Austin Tech Republicans.  Basically, I hang out with a lot of nerds. 

We no longer claim that people who work with computers are statistically likely to be criminals. We used to.  Ever read Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution, by Steven Levy (Anchor Doubleday, 1984;O'Reilley 2010;  but available all over the Internet as a PDF).  In addition to eating Chinese food and reading Tolkein, the first hackers at MIT were into locksporting.  By the '80s, the word "hacker" became synonymous with "criminal" hence Levi's book as an apology, not "I'm sorry" apology but a justification and defense apology. 

Criminology became a science during the Enlightenment.  Cesare Beccaria wrote a book On Crimes and Punishments in 1763.  It ended medieval practices of torture to obtain confessions, secret trials, and inhumane punishments.  As science progressed in the 19th century, so did criminology.  Criminalistics (the science of evidence) was created. Not only did chemistry find uses, so did biology.   In 1876, Cesare Lombroso published Criminal Man.  His huge inventory of careful physical measurements identified "natural criminals," atavistic throw-backs, primitives who could never be cured of their deficiencies.  The eugenics movement attracted highly educated and wealthy supporters until the horrors of the death camps revealed the true nature of their false "science." 

There are many ways to group people, depending on your purpose.  "The definition of practical depends on what it is you intend to practice."

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 3/04, 4:30am)


Post 155

Sunday, March 4, 2012 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Sam,

You said to Kyle:
I'm surprised that you are using an argument of "group's rights." I firmly believed that members of this forum rejected out-of-hand the concept that groups have rights ...
While Kyle might speak for himself on this, I certainly didn't come away with the impression you did. Kyle characterized this line of reasoning without approval --  as a "we vs. they" mentality. I'm pretty sure that Kyle himself doesn't subscribe to the "we vs. they" mentality. He only used it to explain the behavior of some people.

Ed


Post 156

Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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Sam, I owe you an apology; I'm sorry I never clarified what I meant in my post 151. It is not my intention to reopen this thread; I just wanted to clear a few things up.

In the quest for absolute equality, no distinctions (between groups of people) can be made.

 

If there are no distinctions between groups then there can be no groups, as groups are characterized by their differences. I'm really trying to get my head around this. Are you arguing that I should ignore that there are elderly people, young people, handicapped people? Are you suggesting that I ignore that certain people have traits in common? There are laws protecting juveniles because they can't be fully responsible for their actions. Are all the data miners out there immoral because they have certain target groups? 

My above statement is not my position, rather, it is my speculation as to the motives of others. Many people quest for equality, and the quest to eliminate racism, by blurring distinctions between groups and individuals. Their reasoning is "If I can prove that everyone is the same, no one will try to oppress anyone (by using racial characteristics), since we are all the same." Though this is well meaning, it doesn't account for reality, and is unnecessary if individual rights are secured.

 

Personally, I recognize the distinction between groups and individuals, both genetic and otherwise.


One that comes immediately to mind is the preservation of a groups' rights. If distinctions are avoided, and all people are viewed as the same, people will view each other as having the same rights. However, if distinctions come into play, some people may use this as grounds to violate another groups' rights.

I'm surprised that you are using an argument of "group's rights." I firmly believed that members of this forum rejected out-of-hand the concept that groups have rights ... only individuals have rights.

To distinguish groups of people from groups of other kinds, such as trees or animals, makes no sense to me. It's an inhibition not to observe that "blacks have good teeth" or "white guys get sunburned easily." I reject the idea that one should censor one's thoughts or speech because someone else might violate another "group's" rights when the expression is factual and non-confrontational. Would you have the same argument if a black guy observed, to me, that white guys get sunburned easily? (I'm white.) The idea of me being offended is absurd.

You're right, I should have put "the preservation of the individual's rights".

Hope this clears things up.

Also, Ed is correct. Some people (i.e. politicians) find it useful to seperate people into groups (often by use of racial characteristics). Those people subscribe to the "we vs. they" mentality. My point was that other people, in order to prevent group vs. group domination, attempt to blur racial distincitions (create an all inclusive whole) to prevent this. They'd be better off securing individual rights as anyone can see that no two people are exactly alike.  

And thank you, Ed, for giving me the benefit of the doubt.


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Post 157

Wednesday, March 13, 2013 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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http://i879.photobucket.com/albums/ab357/onestdv/chartlibcrea.jpg

Post 158

Thursday, March 14, 2013 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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Why is it that I suspect Serapis Bey might be Brad Trun - that fellow who used to argue that blacks aren't as intelligent as other races?

From Wikipedia: "Serapis Bey... is regarded in Theosophy as being one of the Masters of the Ancient Wisdom; and in the Ascended Master Teachings is considered to be an Ascended Master and member of the Great White Brotherhood." [emphasis added]

If this isn't a reincarnation of Trun, that photobucket link is for the same kind of racist argument. It is an argument for a position that is left partially hidden. To tell the truth, I liked the old school racist better. They were right out in the open, and didn't attempt such sneaky, round-about, cowardly arguments by innuendo and implication. Am I wrong?

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 3/14, 9:51am)


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Post 159

Thursday, March 14, 2013 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
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We're being attacked/infiltrated by the racists [concrete-bound, anti-character tribalists; picture the Klingons from Star Trek]! All power to the forward shields! Prepare to fire photon torpedo!

:-)

Ed

p.s., I'm not clicking these links anymore. Every time you click on them, that new Google-powered/government-controlled database in Utah (a 100,000 sq. ft. digital library) fires up and records it. Heck, the damn thing is probably recording this post right now. Damn! When you are a lover of values, mankind, freedom, etc., it's like you can't catch a break anymore under this new "Skynet" super-computer. It's kind of exciting that we are getting our own version of Skynet (see Terminator IMDb for details), I just hope that we don't get those automatic drones that sweep the skies looking for heat sources to destroy. The creepy-looking skeletons might be on the way, also. I just heard that researchers have successfully "cyborged" bugs (implanted neuromodulators on them, in effect making them remote-controlled "mini-drones").

We do not live in boring times, though most recent events leave me disenchanted.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/14, 7:21pm)


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