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Post 100

Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 3:00pmSanction this postReply
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Dean wrote,
Whether you feel bad when contemplating cheating on a test, whether you feel like a disgusting scoundrel when considering cheating on your wife, whether you feel butterflies when you climb a tree or walk to the edge of the cliff. These are not feelings that you decide from some rational deduction. Instead, they are things that have been programmed into our genes through natural selection. Your body is designed to feel them.
If I thought that the test was unfair or biased and that I was morally entitled to cheat on it, then I would not feel bad. If I didn't believe there was anything morally wrong with cheating on my wife (because, let's say, she had cheated on me), then I would not feel like a disgusting scoundrel. If I was a seasoned tree or cliff climber who was fully confident in his abilities, then I might not feel butterflies, because I did not think there was even the remotest chance that I would fall.

However, if was worried about the possibility of falling, then I might very well feel butterflies, because I would realize that I was endangering my safety. In other words, I would feel fear, because I had judged myself to be engaging in a hazardous activity -- fear being a response to my evaluation of the danger that I perceived myself to be in.

What these examples illustrate is that feelings of guilt or fear are based on our judgment about the significance to ourselves of the action we're engaging in. They involve acts of appraisal or evaluation, which are not themselves programmed into our psyche at birth. What is programmed is the kind of emotional response that we experience given those judgments and evaluations. We have no control over the emotion of fear, given our judgement that something is dangerous or life threatening, nor over our emotion of guilt, given our judgment that we are doing something morally wrong.


Post 101

Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Thanks for that excerpt. Part of which said, "Through the consistent application of sound dietary and exercise habits, you can favorably change how your genotype is expressed. Once you establish behaviors that favor lean tissue over fat tissue, you will change the competitive landscape so that being lean becomes natural for you. What's most amazing is that these epigenetic changes can be passed on to your offspring as if they were actual changes in your genotype. So if you become lean and strong, you increase the likelihood that your off-spring will have a tendency to be lean and strong as well."

Can you see if there is a footnote to a scientific paper to support that statement. I'm becoming more and more sceptical as I get older, but then I'm also seeing far, far more bad research being reported.

I'm just not buying this. Look at what is being claimed. 1) Some guy gobbles down dozens of twinkies, and cartons of chocolate ice cream every day till he swells up like a weather balloon. 2.) Because of that, a set of genes are changed in some fashion. 3.) Among the genes that have to be changed are the epithelial cells of Seminiferous tubules in the fat guy's testicles - to produce sperm with a different set of genes. 4). Those sperm with the modified genes end up mating with an egg and forming a zygote. 5) The zygotes genes result in a process of embryology that results in a fetus that is fat, or will have a strong propensity to become fat sometime after birth. I say there is no evidence of this being the case.

Most epigeneic effects are from damage to a germ cell's DNA. For example Prader-Willi Syndrome results in severe obesity, but not in the parent whose germ cell's DNA suffers a mutation. The gene mutation is NOT the product of over-eating. There are several ways in which the gene mutations can occur, but it won't be noticed in the parent, only in the child, and the child's children, etc. There are epigeneic effects during embryology, and toxic chemicals that alter gene expression. We put on lead-lined aprons or leave the room when x-rays are taken to prevent damage to the gonads. But none of these sources of epigeneic effects are Lamarkian in nature.
----------------

No where can I find any mention of the effect you quoted where an acquired trait becomes heritable as a result of having been acquired.

Post 102

Monday, December 19, 2011 - 9:42amSanction this postReply
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In the area of lifestyle choices, there is some evidence that certain epigenetic changes can occur just by virtue of a person’s being in the presence of others. For instance, if you perform proper strength training and become stronger, it doesn’t just mean that any children you should have in the future may carry those benefits; it also means that any previously born offspring may benefit as well, assuming they share your environment. The same applies to negative factors: some studies have indicated that a person’s risk for obesity can increase by as much as 57 percent if the person habitually associates with people who are obese. One such study appeared in the July 26, 2007, New England Journal of Medicine.[8] So, it’s not just that you pass such changes on through the act of procreation; you can also pass them on environmentally.[9]
 
8. Nicholas A. Christakis and James Fowler, “The Spread of Obesity in a Large Social Network over 32 Years,” New England Journal of Medicine 357, no. 4 (July 26, 2007): 370–79.
9. Ethan Waters, “DNA Is Not Destiny,” Discover 27, no. 11 (November 2006); and Joanne Downer, “Backgrounder: Epigenetics and Imprinted Genes,” http://hopkinsmedicine.org/press/2002/november/epigenetics.htm.

Little, John R.; McGuff, Doug (2008-12-17). Body by Science : A Research Based Program to Get the Results You Want in 12 Minutes a Week (Kindle Locations 4391-4395). McGraw-Hill. Kindle Edition.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/19, 9:42am)


Post 103

Monday, December 19, 2011 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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Clearly those claims are about the psychological effects of the environment - it isn't genetic in any way and therefore isn't heritable.

Post 104

Monday, December 19, 2011 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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I am not a medical scientist and hesitate to argue with the medical doctor who wrote the cited book.  His Web site is at http://www.bodybyscience.net for anyone who wants to explore this further.  Perhaps those so motivated wish to contact the author directly via his site to challenge him to elucidate and support his claims.

Post 105

Monday, December 19, 2011 - 4:37pmSanction this postReply
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Obesity has survival value because you never know when you might eat again...

Obesity is inherited:
http://www.sciencentral.com/video/2008/10/21/inherited-obesity-is-amplified-across-generations/

A twin study of weight loss and metabolic efficiency. V Hainer, A Stunkard, M Kunesova, J Parizkova, V Stich, DB Allison. International Journal of Obesity, 2001, Vol 25, Iss 4, pp 533-537. Hainer V, Charles Univ, Gen Fac Hosp, Obes Management Ctr, Lannova 2, Prague 11000 1, CZECH REPUBLIC

Cited here:

A study from Czechoslovakia showed that obesity is inherited. Czechoslovakia has a registry of twins who are separated from each other at birth and given to foster parents.

Many years later, researchers located the twins and found that they were equally likely to be obese and have the same resting metabolic rate, which is a measure of how many calories they burn while they are doing nothing. Obesity in the twins had little to do with whether the foster parents were obese or skinny, what the parents and children ate, or how much they exercised. Since obesity appears to be inherited, doctors must look for a genetic cause. So far, we know that the stomachs of obese people produce too little ghrelin, one of the hormones that control hunger. Obesity will eventually be cured by a specific medical treatment, not by fad diets.

http://www.drmirkin.com/nutrition/1348.html

 

Then, enter "how obesity is acquired" into your browser:

Acquired obesity and poor physical fitness impair expression of genes of mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation in monozygotic twins discordant for obesity.

 

Defects in expression of genes of oxidative phosphorylation in mitochondria have been suggested to be a key pathophysiological feature in familial insulin resistance. We examined whether such defects can arise from lifestyle-related factors alone. Fourteen obesity-discordant (BMI difference 5.2 +/- 1.8 kg/m(2)) and 10 concordant (1.0 +/- 0.7 kg/m(2)) monozygotic (MZ) twin pairs aged 24-27 yr were identified ...   This implies that acquired poor physical fitness is associated with defective expression of the oxidative pathway components in adipose tissue mitochondria.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460597

This is just a variation on an old theme: environment versus heredity.  The important difference is that epigenetics attempts to find chemical events as responses to environment - fear, anger, hunger, anxiiety, happiness, ecstasis - that affect genetic transfer heritability.  Again (for the third time, at least) if you explore the available literature, you will find compelling evidence to substantiate the claim that what we learn changes that which we pass on. 

PBS Nova: Epigenetics here

PBS Nova: The Ghost in Your Genes here

How You Can Change Your Genes (Time Magazine) here

And "Insight" Summary from Nature magazine here

Backgrounder on Epigenetics from Johns Hopkins here

 

 

 


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Post 106

Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 5:07amSanction this postReply
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Focusing strictly on individuals changing themselves rather than passing these changes to their children, I have seen too many people change their lives from "fat to fit" to accept the totally deterministic view that obesity is inevitable.  The "tendency" might be there.  But one can control and manage it through well-reasoned actions.  The number of morbidly obese people in Mensa is disturbing since they of all people ought to know better.

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Post 107

Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 6:09amSanction this postReply
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And, again, as in the examples of John Wayne as Genghis Khan and Warner OIand as Charlie Chan and Michael Jackson as Michael Jackson, people can change their race... even if they pass on other characteristics than those they acquired.  But "fit or fat" are not races.  Mensa is not a race.  We inherit much, but not all inheritances are races.... in fact, only one seems to be: someone else's idea of where your ancestors apparently came from.

In my Post 64 above here, I showed pictures of people, challenging the racialists to identify the races of these individuals.

Tom Cruise is not really a pilot.  Bessie Coleman was.  Jimmy Stewart, Harrison Ford, and John Travolta are.  Christian Slater is not.  Florence Pancho Barnes was; Valerie Bertanelli playing Pancho was ridiculous.  Some people are "natural born aviators" but "aviator" is not a "race." (Maybe it should be.  More on that, later.)

We did John Wayne, Warner Oland, and Michael Jackson. 

Folks with ancestors apparently from Africa include Colin Powell, J. Edgar Hoover, Hallie Berrie, and Nichelle Nichols.  The thing is, it is not common to say that they apparently had ancestors from Europe.  I refered here to the work of anthropologist Augustin Fuentes.  I heard him speak on race. As a briliiant college professor, he knew his audience.  He showed a picture of Pres. Obama.  "Where are his ancestors from?"   Africa, came the reply. "Does he have any choice in that?"  Fuentes meant by "choice" not the simplistic notion that we cannot choose our parents, but the subtle truth that other people define your ancestry:  race is ascribed.  The reply was "Africa" not "Europe" which is equally true.
 
Tiger Woods, you know.  As TSI asks, "Is mixed-race a race?"  When I get federal forms, I now claim "two or more races."  That social reality stumped the federal government - not much of a challenge - for 30 years until they added "Two or more" to their forms. 

The young woman, the older woman, and the fishermen are all "Pacific Island Negritos."  I chose them because DMG cited the easy claim that these people show less "racial diversity" than Europeans.   Clearly "less" or "more" here are so relative as to be meaningless. 

The guys with the fuzzy cone hats are from Tierre del Fuego, a place so harsh that civilization was impossible - or so said Darwin, though DMG predicts that their environment encouraged a strong development of property rights.  Not only do they look like Pacific Islanders, they are also from America, which, as DMG claimed from standard sources has "less racial diversity" than Europe.  Clearly, Native Americans are not uniform in outward appearance, ranging in skin color, etc., etc., depending on how long ago they left Asia and then adaptation to their evironment. 

The pretty girl with the tattoo and the distinguished gentleman are Maori.  You know what a totem pole is.  They only two places where you find them are British Columbia and New Zealand.  What "race" are the Maori?  Pacific Negritos?  Native Americans?  Something else?  

Homo sapiens sapiens is only 70,000 years old.  We all descended from the same tribe of 600 individuals. Make of that what you will, or make of yourself what you choose.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 12/20, 6:18am)


Post 108

Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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How timely. A professor of anthropology at Wayne State University just broadcast on local television that "we are all one race. Technically, 'race' means 'species.'"

Her name is Harden, Jacalyn D.

Thank you, professor.


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Post 109

Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
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Technically, race does NOT mean species. They are totally different categories. Race is synonymous with sub-species. Science works with morphologically different subspecies, or with geographically separated subspecies based upon ancestors.

You need to be very careful in what you pick up from Asst. Prof. Harden. She is attempting to use science and psuedo-science to achieve political ends. For example, at the link you supplied, you can see that her latest book "...underscores the discipline's perhaps less obvious and unintended place in helping to define what it means to be human in ways that often further the goals of neoliberal social and economic policies." [my emphasis]

Progressives have no shame regarding abuse of science to achieve political goals. They are perfectly happy to take their goals of social justice, egalitarianism, cultural and moral relativism, redistribution, and centralized control by the elites and recasting what science says, like they do in Climate Change, to support the goals. Or as they put it in this case, use anthropology to "define what it means to be human" to further neoliberal policies.

Post 110

Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 11:42pmSanction this postReply
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Steve Wolfer carved in stone: "Progressives have no shame regarding abuse of science to achieve political goals. "

I must ask: wherein lies your shame, Steve?

You have endorsed racialism. You do not define race because you cannot. You did not accept the challenge - or acknowledge the challenge of my post. I ask you, Steve, are diabetics a "race"? Are "alcoholics" a "race"?? Many traits are inherited. They are not "races" for arbitrary non-objective reasons.



Post 111

Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 11:53pmSanction this postReply
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Michael you yourself flamed brad trun and said something to the effect of "but I guess my hungarian italian mixed blood doesn't know anything"
I don't recall the post but I can look it up.

For the record try telling a treaty 1st nations native that his race doesn't exist. He just might have something to say about that. At least in canada were the canadian government forks out billions in aid to first nations reserves.

I for one would be more than happy to tell him race doesn't exist so my tax dollars wouldn't be subsidizing him which in fact does more to keep him economically depressed as there is no incentive for him to get off the reserve and join productive society as an individual...
(Edited by Jules Troy on 12/21, 12:01am)


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Post 112

Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 12:06amSanction this postReply
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Marrota,

This is what I said to you in post 46, "You call me a racialist (which I am not). A racialist believes in the existence of inheritable patterns of phenotypical characteristics (which I do) AND they emphasize race as important and might subscribe to some beliefs in racial superiority - which I don't. So, if you are an honorable man, you can apologize for your defamation."

You never did apologized for your scummy attacks.
---------------

Now, you repeat them.

You lie. I have not endorsed "racialism." Where is your shame?
---------------

You certainly leaped up quickly to defend progressives. Have gone from anarchist to progressive?

If you can't tell what race is (and no, I'm not talking about "Social Constructs," then that becomes your problem and I'm happy to let it stand as a bright symbol to your willing, evangelical tribute to the latest, progressive's floating abstraction.

I would never accept challenges from you... and to say why would involve being more specific regarding what I think of you than civil exchanges would permit.

Post 113

Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 3:35amSanction this postReply
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She has a Ph.D, Steve.  They called her "Dr. Hayden" on the show.

underscores the discipline's perhaps less obvious and unintended place in helping to define what it means to be human in ways that often further the goals of neoliberal social and economic policies."

If you can tell what her own political views are from this description of the book, or if she's promoting anything, rather than explaining and exploring, more power to you.  Do you think she's a screaming liberal because she's black?  

I assume the anthropologist Michael mentioned would agree with her, and he wouldn't be the only one.


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Post 114

Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 4:25amSanction this postReply
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She also used political economy as one of her studies..those two words used together never bode well for any economy nor for those concerned with individual rights or objectivism in general.

There once was a person who wrote " amongst rational people there can never be conflict"...wonder who wrote that.

Work it the f out this thread sucks.

Post 115

Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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Steve has introduced a Red Herring. He should know better.

Post 116

Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

I never said that she didn't have a Ph.D. What does that have to do with anything? Paul Krugman has a Ph.D as well - so what?

You are the one who is saying she's black - is that a race? How can you tell? And, I shouldn't have to remind you that I'm the one who keeps saying that ideas and intelligence are NOT inherited. Did you ask that question just to insult me?

And I did not introduce anything as a red herring. The VERY first thing I did was answer your statement head-on with a rebuttle.


Post 117

Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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The instructor's political bend is irrelevant to her metaphysical assertion; that we are all one race. The assertion may be true, or false, but it cannot be refuted by any political theory, because those arguments do not address the premise. 

Steve, you're asserting that we can go from [Genus: homo sapien sapien] to [Sub-species: The Races], skipping any classified specific species. I don't think you can skip

I think you're wrong.

Quote from The Art of Reasoning - David Kelley:

 The two basic rules of classification are: 1. a single principle or set of principles should be used consistently so that the categories (species) are mutually exclusive and jointly exhaustive; and 2. the principles used should be essential ones.

The terms "mutually exclusive" and "jointly exhaustive" may not be familiar to you, but their meaning is implicit in the old saying, "a place for everything and everything in its place." Lets start with the second half of the saying. The goal of classification is to put each item in its place - to assign each member of the genus to a species. But we cannot assign an item to one particular species if it belongs to more than one.  Suppose you tried to classify your courses into the following categories: art, biology, history, economics and introductory. Where would you put "Introduction to Art?"  Because your categories overlap, we don't know whether to classify this as an introductory course or an art course.  The first rule of classification, then, is that the species must not overlap.  We express this logic by saying the species must be mutually exclusive: each species must exclude all members of every other species.

What consistent principle would you use to classify a sub-species when a species can't be defined?  And how can any of these sub-species not violate the mutually exclusive rule?  If Obama is more than one race, doesn't that immediately violate the mutually exclusive rule?  Don't we all violate this rule on some level?  I'm thinking we do.

Steve, I apologise for making this so short, but I'm crazy busy, and this is taking far more thought than I have time for at the moment.  If you have Kelley's text book, I really encourage you to read the first few chapters as it relates classification and then when he gets into defining concepts.  I think it matters.    


Post 118

Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

I don't find the arguments that there is no such thing as race to be worthy of serious argument. You appear to be claiming that race is only a social construct and that it is unrelated to any heritable traits. Yet, you identified that professor as a black. I asked how you did that. You refuse to answer.

Classification in biology is complex. There are many forms of classification that exist in biology and all of them have evolved over time.

Biological definitions of race (Long & Kittles 2003)

Concept: Essentialist
Reference: Hooton (1926)
Definition: "A great division of mankind, characterized as a group by the sharing of a certain combination of features, which have been derived from their common descent, and constitute a vague physical background, usually more or less obscured by individual variations, and realized best in a composite picture."
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Concept: Taxonomic
Reference: Mayr (1969)
Definition: "A subspecies is an aggregate of phenotypically similar populations of a species, inhabiting a geographic subdivision of the range of a species, and differing taxonomically from other populations of the species."
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Concept: Population
Reference: Dobzhansky (1970)
Definition: "Races are genetically distinct Mendelian populations. They are neither individuals nor particular genotypes, they consist of individuals who differ genetically among themselves."
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Concept: Lineage
Reference: Templeton (1998)
Definition: "A subspecies (race) is a distinct evolutionary lineage within a species. This definition requires that a subspecies be genetically differentiated due to barriers to genetic exchange that have persisted for long periods of time; that is, the subspecies must have historical continuity in addition to current genetic differentiation."
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Concept: Population genetic correlation structure
Reference: Edwards (2003)
Definition: "most of the information that distinguishes populations is hidden in the correlation structure of the data and not simply in the variation of the individual factors."
----------------------------------------------

I don't want to argue this any further. Please feel free to believe anything you want in this area because I don't feel as if anything I've said has made any difference.


Post 119

Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 6:10pmSanction this postReply
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Fine with me, but if I describe you as "tall," am I describing your race? Why/why not?  Why would someone's color be a racial description, but not their height?  Maybe you're really a Maasai, African, Steve.  I'll bet we could find the right combination and come up with a pretty convincing composite to make you a Maasai warrior.  

Anyone know how many "races" exist in the genus at this time, or their specific definitions?  I wouldn't have the first clue how to define my own "race."  I can only offer visual descriptions.


 


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