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Post 120

Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 12:08amSanction this postReply
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Steve

The point I'm interested in is the point about how established morals and norms evolve slowly in a process we can't understand or predict the outcomes of by competing with new ideas or to put it this way a traditionalism that says reason can’t find objective standards for judging a social order. This idea is often held up in response to rationalistic central planning. I like to think of it as mindless social evolution lacking an epistemological framework.
(Edited by Michael Philip on 8/31, 12:10am)


Post 121

Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 9:52amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

If I understand you correctly, I think of it as more a matter of statistics... as in economics. You are a primary agent in the field of economics in that you make a choice to buy something. But your purchase alone would not so effect the overall supply and demand for that product as to determine the outcome.

You wrote:
...how established morals and norms evolve slowly in a process we can't understand or predict the outcomes of by competing with new ideas...
I see a number of evolutionary processes going on simultaneously. The slowest of them is the genetic evolution, where, in this case, we could imagine some trait related to a genetic capacity to create or evaluate ideas is resulting in a differential in rates of the reproduction of that trait. I.e., are we getting smarter or dumber - as a genetic characteristic? That is an evolutionary process that relates to ideas... very indirectly, and it is ticking over slowly in the background. However, I don't see it has having any short term, or any overpowering effect when compared to the other evolutionary processes that are in play.

Each individual is evolving as they formulate beliefs, accept principles, and form psychological patterns regarding understanding and acting. They are building an entire personal universe and it is a kind of evolutionary process where the more basic patterns and principles become the fields of competition for new ideas, or new practices. The agent that is active here is not the DNA or genes of genetic evolution, but rather their volition, their choice.

Then there is the competition in the outer world of their subculture, and the wider predominate culture. In this broad field of ideas, beliefs, and practices we can model it as an evolutionary domain by referring the different ideas, or collections of ideas as Memes and see them as the agents that attempt to use individuals to get themselves reproduced. In this model, for the most part, we ignore reason, logic and individual choice (kind of holding them constant) and looking at the results of different new ideas being defeated by traditional views versus the new ideas overturning older, more settled ideas. This is a model that attempts to look at ideas the way we look at genes and from that stance, try to determine what contributes to the successful reproduction of a given idea.

Needless to say, unlike the determinists who are the most fond of this model, Objectivists need to hold in mind the fact that like economics, where individual consumers make individual purchase decisions which may or may not be rational and that what is of value to one person as a purchase may not be for another, that the total effect on the economy is not much more than a statistical summation. So it is with Memes and cultural evolution. But unlike genetic evolution, there is a much tighter tie between individual psychological processes, epistemological examinations of reasoning processes and belief systems, and with the 'evolution' of a culture or a set of ideas. These are more like different looking glasses through which we are viewing different aspects of very similar things.
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...a traditionalism that says reason can’t find objective standards for judging a social order...
I don't fully grasp your connection between evolution of social systems and having an objective standard for judging them. It should be clear that some things are objectively bad for man, others are objectively good, and yet others don't have any significant effect. Then the arguments begin as to which set of standards do the best job of defining the good.

Assuming some agreement exists on what is good for man, someone might argue that central planning is the best way to implement that standard (and we would show them they were wrong :-)

If their argument was that central planning will be more effective in reaching desirable ends than allowing individuals to make their own choices because of the willy-nilly nature of social evolution, and because social evolution isn't predictable... well, they are coming from the political control freak position of "I insist on forcing everyone to do what I think is best, because having my way is more important than your freedom to do what you want." Not exactly an argument that wins me over!

Post 122

Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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no the will nilly nature of social evolution is often used against rationalistic top down central planning and to argue for a spontaneous order. Trouble is not every spontaneous order is a good one and that is where the judgement is necessary. of course the anarchists will say government is a top down creation

Post 123

Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,
of course the anarchists will say government is a top down creation
Anarchists don't say anything worth listening to since they argue for a system that puts the initiation of force on an even footing with voluntary associations as the arena in which market competition occurs. They call THAT a 'free' market, ignoring the fact that "free" means that a monopoly of law has to first exist and be reasonably effective in removing the initiation of force before people can be "free" to trade - that people can be reasonably free of violence. They make pie-in-the-sky floating abstractions that aren't more than mental masturbation.

Post 124

Sunday, September 1, 2013 - 1:51amSanction this postReply
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what they will say is that the market makes us free and makes us more rational than we were before so why do you need an agency like a government. I've noticed this from some Hayekians as well. That rationality evolves out of the social order and that ideas determine whether the order is a good one or not.

Post 125

Sunday, September 1, 2013 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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Hi Michael,
what they [anarchists] will say is that the market makes us free and makes us more rational than we were before so why do you need an agency like a government.
They? If you are arguing in favor of anarchy, I'll continue to answer after this post, but otherwise it feels like a waste of time.

The market doesn't produce freedom, it is just the place where we interact according to the prevailing rules. The proper rules (moral and legal), to the degree they are enforced, will establish freedom, or in their absence result in an absence of freedom.

The raw unadulterated jungle, where tooth and claw rule, is a market without a minarchy to 'free' it of initiated violence. That is what a market with no law looks like. That is a market place where no matter how rational you are, voluntary associations are 'freely' threatened by any thug willing to initiate force. And when a gun is at your head, rationality and voluntary association become impotent - that's why we outlaw all the different forms of initiation of force. This kind of anarchy isn't stable and the most effective at initiating force will in time become the new tyrant and rule all.

You must have freedom FIRST, before you can have a free marketplace.

Freedom is a political state where the code of law, police, courts, and military are used solely to eliminate the initiation of force from the market place (from all aspects within the jurisdiction) - rationality flourishes best where it is not under constant threat of the initiation of force.

There must be a single code of law that outlaws the initiation of force in all of its different forms. If people can 'compete' in the creation of law - that is to have competing sets of laws - then the initiation of force isn't outlawed, it is just dressed up in different sets of clothes pretending to be morally justifiable - like the laws of tyrant nations.

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