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Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
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Teachers are hated because they are the beneficiaries of looters, and because the children are forced to go to school and forced to go to classes when they know they can find things that are more worthwhile to do. Yea, teaching is good, kids like that. But looking at the net results, teaching isn't what the public teachers do. They are looters.

Being forced to go to school, the children are made looters too. And now everyone hates everyone else's children because the children are looters too. And the parents for using the looter school.

It is pitiful. In general, public teachers make me sick. Yes, you may do some good. But look what your doing to society and to yourself. If you are a public teacher, then you are probably a net looter. Why don't you get a job where your paid by consensual means? You a looter? Yep. I love it when you teach children knowledge consistent with reality that they benefit from. I hate it how you are a looter.

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Post 1

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 5:35pmSanction this postReply
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Read Ayn Rand's essay "The Question of Scholarships." I think her take would be diametrically the opposite of Dean's.

Rand was much more worried over the quality of education being provided in tax-paid schools than she was over the fact that such education was tax-paid ("looted"). The goal, of course, is to abolish public (tax-paid) education, and to win the competition of ideas about how and what to teach children (reason- and fact-based curricula vs. the status quo). But Rand's greatest passionate outcry regarding education was in "The Comprachicos."

As for one's being a public (taxp-paid) school teacher -- as long as a tax-paid job is something that is not in principle immoral (such as being on the Draft Board for the Selective Service System), and as long as a tax-paid employee is against the government providing the service he is hired to perform, and as long as a tax-paid employee is doing quality work, then he is morally in the clear.

The massive government intervention into education has seriously screwed up not only education of children, but also the market for educational employment, so Rand held that it is really unreasonable to expect/demand that teachers work in the private sector. Had she lived another 24 years, she might have changed her mind, but I don't think so.

REB


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Post 2

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 12:51amSanction this postReply
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Roger, I'm extremely confident your wrong.

Public school teachers: Get an honest job. Stop producing value for looters.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/14, 1:19am)


Post 3

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 7:40amSanction this postReply
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Dean, there are a great many private school teachers who are just as bad, if not worse, than public school teachers.  It's the crap universities are producing, not something inherent in the profession of teaching it'self.  You must have a college professor horror story or two, or three, I'm sure!

Tell us your college professor horror stories!

I had a communications professor who was such a hippy, he ignored everything in the text book that referred to logic or reason as a means to solving problems or conflict. It was horrible.   


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Post 4

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 7:44amSanction this postReply
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Dean,
I found it very strange that you talked this way. You are very young. You have worked (and supported yourself) for how many years? 2 or 3 maybe? For most of the years of your life, you have been supported I assume by your parents and family. And I don't think what you have produced so far equals what have been invested in you. You are so quick to label others looters. What about yourself?


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Post 5

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
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Hong - It's a question of biting the hand that feeds. We have every right to; I have no allegiance to anyone simply because I use their services, and I certainly would support the idea of hitting at an immoral, infinitely-subsidised monopoly that state-schools have.

Andy.

Post 6

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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This context illustrates the divergence of objective and subjective morality. I can agree with Dean that government tax coercion to monopolize the education industry is evil. But not that individuals subjected to government force are evil.

Some school is better than no school. To the extent government taxes and monopolizes school, it deprives citizens of choice, of morality.

Those economically dependent, subjected to government force are better with a public education than none. Similarly with teachers, since government provides most teaching jobs, they may well be better off teaching in public school than not.

Those, no doubt like Dean and I, who have been victimized by the defective product of government school, have outstanding accounts against the government that took our families money and injured us with it.

A man may rob one and give charity to another, but than man is a thief still. It is difficult to be a friend of both. I've had good and bad teachers, but hardly freedom to escape the bad or choose the good.

Scott

Post 7

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,
Dean, there are a great many private school teachers who are just as bad, if not worse, than public school teachers.
By what standard are you judging private teachers as bad?
Hong,

I had been oppressed by society's and my parent's expectation of me attending the government school system for 14 years. I was too altruistic and unwise to talk about how horrible it was or that I should look for something better. My family supported me consensually. My father and mother had honest jobs. My father paid a great deal of taxes, much more than I consumed for my public education. I'm not saying everything public teachers do is wrong. I'm saying they should quit their public job and found or join a private school, and that they are currently leeches teaching to many leeches.

I'm not saying that I have never initiated force in my life. Out of ignorance and lack of a strong moral base when I was younger I've done in the single digits of forms of initiation of force, copyright agreements being the only repetitive crime. Because of my fundamentalist Christian up-bringing, I was extremely passive, being very careful to not to ever hurt anyone. For about a year and a half now I've lived innocently, except for breaking a few copyright agreements which I am now purging from my life. I'm also learning how to stick up for myself, after years of applying the turn the other cheek principle.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/13, 12:04pm)


Post 8

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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By what standard are you judging private teachers as bad?
Liberal political/economic propaganda taught. I even know one of them. He's been teaching in an exclusive private school since he graduated from college (about 30 years), he's also on the city council and never backs away from a hand out, like a city tax money paid automobile, even though he has his own car.
In his teaching (middle school level history and French) he encourages the kids to volunteer at soup kitchens, homeless shelters, collect money for these things. Generally making them feel guilty for coming from wealthy families.

I'm sure he can't be the only one doing this sort of thing.


Post 9

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
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No, he is not.

http://onthefencefilms.com/

It's fightening how badly leftist our schools are. I quote my Politics teacher;

"It's when you look at the inner cities and how the rich fail those people, there's an obvious need for a more socialist state."

My classmates agreed with him, and I'm left with the fact if I'd have disagreed with him I would've been looked down upon by my classmates. I would have disagreed, but this goes against my better judgment. I have more chance of swaying them and convincing them of my opinion through a well-prepared means as opposed to simply standing up to a leftist for a few minutes.

Makes you wonder how rational debate is even possible in school when only one ideology is taught.
(Edited by Mr Andrew Bowman
on 3/13, 3:29pm)


Post 10

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 4:03pmSanction this postReply
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I would turn that on its head and say, look at the inner cities and how the government has failed them.  It is clear they need to be freed from the yolk of dependence.

Post 11

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 4:07pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt -

I was closer than you could imagine :-P

I've had some success with convincing other people (Usually leftists) that I'm right, on issues such as the contrast between American and British society, American pollution, the Gini co-efficient (My knowledge of this and it's effect are limited, but twice as good as your average socialist crackpot...), crime rates. People refuse to believe the USA has a lower crime rate than the UK - I've no doubt that part of this can be attributed to the governmental tool that just so happens to be the largest media source in the UK - The BBC.

Andy.

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Post 12

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 8:06pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,
Of course I don't consider you a looter. Well, not yet. Nor do I consider public school teachers looters.

A lot of your comments recently showed at least a lack of perspective, probably because of your age...or is it  because the tax day is approaching and for the first time in your life that you need to pay (gasp) tax?

I feel laughable over your anguish about your income tax. You know, there are people out there having worked their butt off  for 20 or 30 years non-stop. The federal tax they pay each year is probably more than your gross income, and their property tax is more than the rent you pay for the whole year. Even after already paid for their public school district, they may still need to send their kid(s) to private school, which currently cost about $15-19K per year per kid. Are those people rubbed? I bet they are. But the looters are not public school teachers. The looters are those lazy and unproductive people who live on welfare, or those wasteful government bureaucrats, and yes, those who don't pay their tax, etc.

About children being forced to go to school. Of course they need to be forced. I don't know any child who likes to go to schools, or who has the discipline automatically installed in him. They need to be prompted to go to any school, public, private, or homeschool. I consider the parents who force their children to go to school and learn good and responsible parents.

Do you know something about private school? In my city, most of them are run by Christian or Catholic churches. And there are precious few secular schools for secular families. Frankly, I am not optimistic at all if the schools are all turned to the private hands of the 99% of religious populations of the country.

You said "Because of my fundamentalist Christian up-bringing, I was extremely passive, being very careful to not to ever hurt anyone."

I wonder what is wrong to be taught not to ever hurt anyone? I am very curious that among all the Christian teachings, why you particularly brought up this point?



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Post 13

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 9:21pmSanction this postReply
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"The looters are those lazy and unproductive people who live on welfare, or those wasteful government bureaucrats, and yes, those who don't pay their tax, etc."

Calling people who don't pay taxes 'looters' is simply perverse. How can it not distract from the real looters when would-be-victims instead point fingers at each other?


Post 14

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 9:38pmSanction this postReply
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Hong,

Public school teachers aren't directly looting, they are leeching off of the hand me downs from the looters, which makes them looters too. Why can't they find a job at a private school? Well, I guess because of the government taxation on the public, people cannot afford to pay for public school and private school at the same time. But the teachers could boycott-- they don't, they sit back and enjoy the leeching and then say its good for the children.

This is the first time I've had to pay a considerable amount of federal income tax. Simply because others have been stolen from for decades doesn't mean its OK for me to be stolen from, and it doesn't mean that its OK for anyone to be stolen from.
I wonder what is wrong to be taught not to ever hurt anyone? I am very curious that among all the Christian teachings, why you particularly brought up this point?
Hong, have you ever been attacked before? Do you know anyone that had been attacked? Did the person doing the attacking then just punish themselves? What is wrong is the looters will continue to loot and no one will stop them. You have to use retaliatory force against them to protect yourself.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/13, 9:42pm)


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Post 15

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 10:42pmSanction this postReply
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There are a few good teachers in the public schools and some teachers try hard to do their jobs.  Unfortunately, the government run schools, like any other institution, always want more money.  If they are friendly to the concept of more and more government control, they are likely to receive more money.  Indeed, they are very good at directly lobbying for additional funds to provide ever more essential programs to take care of our most valuable resource, our children.

In the interest of being government friendly or licking the hand that feeds, we have universal instruction that the Constitution is built around "The Elastic Clause".  If a politician says money is to be spent for the public welfare, then the program it funds is Constitutional.  Since government growth depends on altruism, altruism is the philosophy that will always be favored in the public schools.  While I think that the education of the young should be directed at teaching them to think rationally and for themselves, the public schools prefer that children accept the school propaganda line and simply do as they are told.  I would favor wide-ranging discussions of ethics, but the schools prefer a common denominator ethics of altruism, diversity, and egalitarianism, which only disturbs those they think of as rednecks.  They minimize teaching about religions or those things the major religions may have disagreements about.  There is no point in stirring up the slumbering parents.

Do the schools want parents to play an active role in the education of their children?  Many do not.  Why?  Because the parents are likely to be rednecks!  They might not like altruism, the government favoring some races over others and calling it diversity, and they might not believe in equal economic outcomes for everyone.  The parents are bound to be more old-fashioned than the commonly socialist teachers.  This is the story in socialist Montgomery County, Maryland in any case.  We have good schools here.  They teach science and math fairly well.  Now the arts and humanities are a disaster.  They have the better graduates of the education schools teaching here, so they are leading the way.  The way is the way to a socialist, egalitarian, anti-white male society.

My 3 daughters went to these schools.  I never entered their schools without the feeling that the barred doors had clanged behind me.  It did not help that most of the doors really did have chains and locks on them.  One of my daughters felt much the same way and still has not recovered.  These schools are not providing an education, they are largely preparing future socialists who will know their place as cogs of the machine.

This is my stand.  I am the man who is usually criticized here as too tolerant and too benevolent.  But on this issue you are peering deep into a terrible wound.  On this issue, I am furious.


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Post 16

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 11:54pmSanction this postReply
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Public schools aren't necessary for children to learn. Its a fairy tale. You don't have to force children to learn either-- that's a fairy tale too. Reality already has its benefits and rewards to learning. Do you want to work at a bank? Learn math and how to be trustworthy. Do you want to be a firefighter? Learn how to keep yourself in good health and how to operate machinery. Learning these jobs are easy, most adults could switch from job to job, no problem! All they have to do is have some dedication. Most Children will enjoy learning because it helps them get what they want. If they don't enjoy learning then they will be dumb. Boo hoo-- but there's nothing you can do about it-- that's what just what they want to do.

If children get everything for free when they are young, then what's the motivation to them to learn anything? Now that's the real reason why American kids aren't as smart as foreigners: Americans somehow think that children shouldn't do any work! What the heck? Where did we get that idea from? It doesn't make any sense, and it prevents children from learning how to live in the real world.

Notice that when you communicate with people, whether they are young or old, you are teaching, they are learning, and vice versa.

Child has want, you tell them what they will have to learn in order to get what they want. Now they'll want to learn it. Now you could help them find the fastest way to learn it. How does a person build knowledge?

Some ideas depend on the knowledge of other ideas-- so the child will have to learn the dependencies first. If they already know some of the dependencies, but you spend too much time on them, they'll get bored. When a child tells you they are bored, it means that they feel like they are wasting their time. Aren't children in public schools most always bored? What does that tell you? What a waste of time and resources! I'm not so much blaming you. I'm just discovering this now as I write. So now we'll fix it. Lets stop wasting children's time, and let them live! And lets stop stealing from productive people to give to the government, administration, and all the other people who waste stolen money.

Proponents of Communism, Socialism, and Altruism have been the most destructive force against men in history. They destroy everyone's ability to live-- except for the looters and leeches, they sure do benefit from all of the tricked slaves!

Children are amazing. They deserve better than public education. Please bring the free market back to education and let Capitalism and the wonders of Reality and Life do do their work, instead of all of this wasteful looter ridden centralized planning. I'm so sick of being forced to pay for teaching children that life is about forcing people to help others and about self sacrifice. Reality is not a zero sum game, self sacrifice isn't necessary. Most men can live in harmony of interest-- except for the looters.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/14, 12:06am)


Post 17

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 1:10amSanction this postReply
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Work is not torture. Work is action. Good work is self sustaining action. Bad work is self destroying action. Its ridiculous how we outlaw children from being able to trade and receive benefits from performing all sorts of forms of life sustaining action. Child labor laws make me sick. Do you know what harms a child? Or do you just pick arbitrary ideas and call them harm? I'll tell you what harm is: its preventing children from living their own lives as they see fit. And I don't mean allowing them to run out into the express way, or jump off a cliff to see if they can fly, or sticking their arm in a big dangerous machine. I'm talking about all sorts of services children could supply, such as cleaning and preparing food. But we'd have to abolish the minimum wage laws.

For some insane reason, the majority of people think its bad to offer something in return when their children do work for them. They think that no, the child should do it altruistically, and if they don't do it altruistically, then they should be punished. Soooo anti-life!! Good Galt!

Working is the best way for children to learn how to be responsible for their own actions. If they do something against their employer's wishes (like break something etc) then maybe they will be fired or they will have to pay for what they break. This is so wonderful! And children could learn so much at work, and they could think about how they wish they could make more value for themselves, so they would have a desire to learn more so that they could get a better job!

So many big mistakes are being made! I'm so surprised. When I was a child, I thought adults were soo smart-- they new everything, and did everything right. Boy was I wrong.

Socialists and Communists are such idiots! Such idiots! Or maybe they are actually evil people-- looters-- people who don't want to do any work, they just want to make others their slaves. Yep. Dead on, Dean. Not that I think that most socialists and communists know that they are such. They are just fools that do not understand basic game theory. Why are they leading the world? Doesn't make much sense to me.

(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/14, 1:16am)


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Post 18

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 1:14amSanction this postReply
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Dean wrote:
Roger, I'm extremely confident your wrong. Get an honest job. Stop producing value for looters.
Dean, I'm extremely confident you're full of baloney. Why don't you just come out and say that you disagree with Rand's essay "The Question of Scholarships"? A nice critique of it here on RoR would do.

Secondly, if there were an Olympic event for jumping to conclusions, you would be a gold medalist. I am not a public school teacher. If you read my profile, you would know that I am a musician at Disneyland, where I have worked for over 20 years, producing value not for looters, but for whim-worshippers. :-)

REB

P.S. -- For those who are tone deaf to my sense of humor, the last line of my above comments is intended facetiously. God bless Walt Disney, and God bless the over 500 million folks who have come there to have a good time -- and to help pay my salary!


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Post 19

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 1:20amSanction this postReply
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Roger, I implied the public "you", sorry. I fixed it.

Ayn Rand was wrong. One shouldn't use stolen money for anything. Reject it with pride and integrity. I'm looking at super long term. Think about your public image, and what people think when they see "Hey, he won that government grant, but he's not even using it." or "Wow, he pays out of state tuition for school instead of using the stolen tax money." I don't need their money or education anyways. I can live off the products of my own labor just fine thank you.

Who owns what you make when using government money? Who gets to pay higher taxes for using the US Postal service? Man there is a lot of stealing going on.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/14, 1:27am)


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