Public Teachers

An interesting "looters" story from my neighbor to the west.

http://www.nj.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-5/1142316848102960.xml?starledger?ntop&coll=1

Post 61

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 6:00am

Mr Andrew Bowman,

It is never in your self interest to use resources given to you by your enemy unless you make sure that the people who will soon gain power know that you are in a state of involuntary servitude and that in every way you can you are using the resources to defeat him. If the people who currently have power are you enemy, then you should try not to let them know your purpose.

Hong, do you meet this qualification?
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/15, 6:03am)

Post 62

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 6:15am

"You are very young. You have worked (and supported yourself) for how many years? 2 or 3 maybe?"
"A lot of your comments recently showed at least a lack of perspective, probably because of your age."
"You are not really qualified yet to talk about been stolen from."
"I see you are yet to reach the ripe age of 18."
"Frankly, Andrew, I dread to discuss ideas with 17 years old."

Save such condescending attacks on youth for people who don't recognize them as fallacious. Age brings with it many things - but wisdom need not be among them.

Post 63

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 6:28am

Aaron, (warning this post may be boring)

I agree with some of what you are communicating: No argument is refuted or supported by a claim of wisdom.

Yet wisdom is useful. One form of wisdom is knowledge of how your actions influence Reality, and it is extremely important to have it. Lacking any other information about a life form, if you know the life form is wise then you can have higher confidence that you can learn more from their communication then the confidence you would have if you knew they were less wise.

Post 64

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 7:26am

Dean, if I am agreeing with Hong, it's because I am getting old! But I think she's right. We DO need the fire of youth to get things done that might not get done otherwise, sometimes it's easier for those who are still young who haven't become jaded, resigned to fate, etc. and who have nothing to lose to wage the war. But don't turn your back on those who've been there before you...

I appeal to the logician in you: Do you not think that if your way was a rational choice to fight the system, that all the other rational Objectivists would have tried it by now? If You martyr yourself this way, it will be for naught, because those you are fighting will not see you as a martyr, they will see you as a criminal, a nut, and a basketcase (kinda sounds like the Breakfast Club...mmm...breakfast club...). I joke, but I am worried about you. And I am worried because I know exactly what you're going through, been there, done that...I came through it, but not without a few hard bumps on my head, and a couple of lost friendships that I am only now mending. I shudder to think at how far I might have taken this attitude, and I have to acknowledge some truth to what others are saying regarding self-esteem and such crusades...to get Jungian on you, "Be the change you wish to see...".

Hong, regarding your testimonial, you made me think of a song that all young zealots should identify with:

Have you ever been close to tragedy? Or been close to folks who have?
Have you ever felt the pain so powerful, so heavy you collapse?
I've never had to knock on wood, but I know someone who has.
Which makes me wonder if I could.
It makes me wonder if I've never had to knock on wood.
And I'm glad I haven't yet because I'm sure it isn't good,
That's the impression that I get.
Have you ever felt the odds stacked up so high, you need a strength most don't possess?
Or has it come down to do or die? You've got to rise above the rest.
I've never had to knock on wood, but I know someone who has.
It makes me wonder if I could.
It makes me wonder if I've never had to knock on wood.
And I'm glad I haven't yet, because I'm sure it isn't good.
That's the impression that I get.
I'm not a coward, I've just never been tested.
I'd like to think that if I was I would pass.
Look at the tested, and think there but for the grace go I.
Might be a coward, I'm afraid of what I might find out.
I've never had to knock on wood, but I know someone who has.
Which makes me wonder if I could.
It makes me wonder if I've never had to knock on wood.
And I'm glad I haven't yet because I'm sure it isn't good.
That's the impression that I get.
Never have, I'd better knock on wood.
'Cause I know someone who has.
Wonder if I could, it makes me wonder if I've never had to.
I'd better knock on wood 'cause I'm sure it isn't good.
And I'm glad I haven't yet, that's the impression that I get.

Post 65

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 7:46am

Joe Maurone, I'm not worried that people will think I am a nut. I'm confident they will read my words and find that what I am communicating is consistent with Reality.

Post 66

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 7:49am

Ah, the Mighty Might Bosstones :-)

Post 67

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 8:40am

Hi Joe M.,

Thank you very much for sharing your sentiment. Yes, "...has it come down to do or die". I wish more people would take their every day task this way and have more drive to achieve the best they can, instead of incessantly talking about things that they haven't got the slimmest idea.

Post 68

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 9:21am

Dean

Is your hatred of the school system based on your intuitive recognition that the classroom teachers are among the most powerful individuals in the world; but they don't use their power wisely to free their charges from the yoke of submission to irrational authority?

Use the system, get tenure, and then give'em hell! You and I would have made a great team.

BTW How are you making out with Damian Moskovitz? His mother was a Montessori teacher.

Sharon

Post 69

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 10:41am

Dean-

Perhaps you misparsed the clause 'but wisdom need not be among them'. It does not disparage wisdom, rather it indicates that age does not necessarily imply wisdom.

The odd thing is that I actually don't agree with your view on the original underlying teacher issue. I was just getting tired of seeing personal attacks against you and Andrew being the primary form of argument - such that it was making me more ashamed of the 'accepting a public teaching job can be valid' side.

I'm glad to see cool heads in the recent posts. In the spirit of returning to topic: among many insults, Roger's post #46 did contain one really good idea. How about framing your view in terms of whether and how you disagree with Rand's own essay concerning accepting scholarships? Thanks.

Post 70

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 6:17pm

Sharon Romagnoli Macdonald,

My view is simple:
1. The government uses the good people who use the stolen money to produce value for others as a basis for their argument to continue stealing and to steal even more money.
2. It only talks about the results from #1
3. It always represses and dismisses any arguments and evidence contrary to its claims, or changes the subject, or says "your evil for not wanting to contribute towards #1".
4. It uses moral slave driving guilt of the "evil" of pursuing purposes you choose for yourself. It uses the moral slave driving verbal rewards for the "good" of pursuing purposes that are dictated to you by others.

Further discussion on #1:
Then when you say "I don't want to pay taxes" everybody harps on you because you are against doing #1. Well, let me tell you, look at the net results of taxes for yourself! I assure you #1 isn't the only thing that taxes do. How much value is being destroyed? How much more value is impossible to be created because the most productive are being stolen from the most and given to the least productive? Oh right, but you have no idea what "productive" means because you don't have a purpose. Well, choose a purpose. Then anything that promotes your purpose is good. When I say "productive" I mean it promotes my life. This means making food and shelter, and making things more efficient, and solving mechanical failure problems in the human body. I like to make things more efficient and solve mechanical failure problem in the human body. I'd work on it more, but I'm so busy due to slavery that I have to spend most of my time just to be able to put food on my table and a roof over my head.

Think about all the things you could do with the money you are taxed with: all of the ways you could use that money to promote your life. Oh yea, I always forget that many people don't care whether they are alive, they just live because others tell them to, and they hate life because they are slaves by only achieving other's purposes because they have been convinced that they are evil if they make their own purpose and pursue their own purpose. Reality is not a zero sum game, it is a variable sum game. Producers increase the sum. Looters and leeches decrease the sum.

Why are kids happy, but adults not? Maybe because kids haven't been convinced that they should live for the sake of others yet? Tell them to just wait, 14 more years in the purpose dictating government school will teach them!
=================
It does that, because we are lead by looters and because the majority have been taught to be Post Modern/Religious, pacifistic, and nihilistic and live in a state of nirvana by the government run school system which is full of these looters. Most have either been taught that God will take care of punishing evil men and rewarding good men, or they accept that there is no good and no evil. Great huh? Plus they are all taught that people should sacrifice what they produce to others. Plus they get out of school knowing no reason to work, and they hate working because they know that they won't be able to live much longer or raise their kids much better if they work. Ummm... I could go on and on about why wealth redistribution really screws us over. Basically, when you are only able to use value that you produce or gain consensually, you use it wisely. When you are able to gain resources by looting, its not your own money, you can just spend it on silly things and then just go steal some more.

Some feel it, and they go crazy but they can't explain it. They attempt to commit suicide. They hate their work. Why hate work? Because you are a slave to the looters and you are not doing what is in your own self interest! Please consider determining your own purposes and working to achieve them instead of working to achieve purposes dictated to you by moral slave drivers.

Real simple. : ) So now maybe you have a hint at why I hate it so much: because its killing everyone except the individuals who dictate other's purpose by using the fallacy of the argument of intimidation!
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/15, 6:29pm)

Post 71

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 8:19pm

Dean

I hear so much despair in your writing, I don't know how to respond. I'm trying to understand your purpose in all this.

At first I thought you wanted agreement with your position. Then I thought you were having a crisis of some kind, and needed to rant and rave.

Now I'm getting the idea that you are feeling abandoned; and are coming to grips with being forced against your will to to live a deeply imperfect life.

What to think, what to say, what to do?

Sharon

Post 72

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 8:41pm

Now I'm getting the idea that you are feeling abandoned; and are coming to grips with being forced against your will to to live a deeply imperfect life.

Yea, its kinda like I grew up thinking a whole bunch of people were my allies doing great things for me and everyone, and then suddenly I realize that most people actually do live at the expense of others, even within my own country and by my own leaders. And then I'm so outraged that people accept the "Its good to live for the sake of others and evil to live for the sake of yourself" argument from intimidation. Why? I'm asking it! Why? Does that make me evil now? Look what I do! I'm not evil to anyone except I'm evil to murderers, rapists, thieves, and scam artists.

Another thing I'm sick of is that people think ideas are not part of Reality, or that Consciousness comes from some other disconnected Reality. Another thing I'm sick of is that people think that its impossible to live 1000000 years, or that man will always only be able to live to about 120 max. Wake up people! Learn some freaking mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, information theory, computer science, game theory, and philosophy! : ) OK, maybe I'm asking a little too much. But you could at least check to see whether you choose your own purposes or if your purposes are all dictated to you by the argument of intimidation.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/15, 8:42pm)

Post 73

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 9:05pm

Dean,

You are talking as if you are at some kind of crossroads, making some kind of intellectual breakthrough in your understanding? What was once so clear to you about people in your life isn't so clear anymore.

Sharon

Post 74

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 1:45am

Dean, you are a smart guy.

I once gave you advice about graduate school. Do you remember? I said that genius is loathed in universities, and to shoot for an area-under-the-curve (of performance) -- instead of a highest peak (nadir). Peaks scare folks -- they have to be eased into them. In my mind, this thread has become more personal to you than is optimific (utility-maximizing). Folks here have attacked you. You -- understandably -- have taken the defensive. You are here, now, shooting for a nadir (a peak) -- possibly precluding a greater 'area-under-the-curve.'

Like you, I despise public education. It only takes one class with a tenured instructor, so old he can't even think straight (but can't be 'fired' for that), to see that public ed. is just plain wrong. But you were right that like-minded individuals best pick their battles -- and that there's more wrong 'out there' than 'in here.' Getting back to the point about going on the defensive, you seem to have got so defensive that you erred. Here is that error ...

=============
Its in the advantage of the life forms with higher intelligence and more resources to promote moral self sacrifice.
=============

This is not true. Do you REALLY believe this, Dean? Is it REALLY in the advantage for the intelligent wealthy to promote altruism? I think the proper term should be the 'cunning wealthy.' 'Cunning' reveals the inherent duplicity of cashing-in on altruism, while 'intelligent' doesn't. Yes, the system is fucked. Yes, there are cunning individuals cashing-in. No, it's not in their 'advantage' to do so. They are excluding themselves from the possibility of lasting human joy. They are being in-human.

'Advantage' is a term only meaningful for a full life (e.g. Hitler never had a real 'advantage'). Taking out a loan you can't repay -- is not to your advantage (though your temporary purchasing power increases).

You're right in principle, but still 'wanting' in practical means. It seems that your purpose would be better served by letting the ends dictate the means. Continue to hold that right end that you have in mind -- but don't prematurely adopt any means, just because they currently seem intuitive.

Someone who's changing things from inside the belly of the beast,

Ed
[Individualist College Instructor -- planting seeds in minds]

Post 75

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 4:42am

they-other than ourselves

government = they(?)

illegitimi non carborundum

(Edited by Mr. L W Hall on 3/16, 10:07am)

Post 76

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 7:08am

Dean said:
"I'll agree that you are leech so some and not a leech to others. I'll agree the same for me."

No. I am a trader. I trade the value of my work with other productive members of the society through the only mean available. You, on the other hand, has been a dependent on other productive people's work for the most part of you life. Absolutely not the same.

Post 77

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 9:00am

Hong, dependent huh? Just the opposite. All my life people have been dependent on me to teach them ideas that are Consistent with reality and how to live. And all I get in return is crap like your giving me and people who say you can't do it and you should quit like Phil.

Check your premises. Learn who I am and what I do before you make judgement. Learn how I have changed people's lives through consensual non-manipulative interaction. (Yes, I have done lots of manipulation (following society's advice) and I've always found that it resulted in horror). Watch the TV series Firefly. Watch the movie Serenity. That's all I'm going to say for now.

Fare well.

Post 78

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 9:28am

Dean,

Sigh, unlike Hong, you don't impress me. Mainly because your all talk--especially in how great you are at frisbee, how much you influence people, how you will do great things, and how we should view your potential as an actual...and give you undeserved credit. Right now you are merely a student, like a few million other people, and the rest is a bunch of hot air.

Check back in with us with real-life accomplishments in, say, 10 years. And by all means go for it and then we maybe able to talk as equals.

Michael

Post 79

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 9:40am