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Post 20

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 7:20pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You are supposed to wait until you have something even better than what came before.


Post 21

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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Those that do, post - those that don't, do-do......

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Post 22

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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Stop it! Stop it, I say!

Now, see here...This entire sketch has become completely silly!

Yes. Very, very silly, indeed.

"Flinging." "Impregnating." No dignity, I say. No dignity at all.




Move along now, Mrs. Entity, there's a good girl...Nothing to see here, Mrs. Thing.

And now for something completely different...

Post 23

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 9:38pmSanction this postReply
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Bidibob, you've really lowered the level of this discussion by assaulting our eyeballs with images of the world's two ugliest women....

...You better not use them on a cover of your magazine

Post 24

Friday, July 28, 2006 - 4:12amSanction this postReply
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In regard to the legitimacy of the practice of drawing implications:
“The best way to study philosophy is to approach it as one approaches a detective story: follow every trail, clue and implication, in order to discover who is a murderer and who is a hero…” Ayn Rand, “Philosophy: Who Needs it?”
Miss Rand’s words would seem to have special significance for you, Mr. Coates.  
             
Needless to say, if anyone took the effort to read my posts, I did quote the passages where I saw certain implications.  Of course, it’s much easier to sling insults and slurs rather than address my arguments.  I can see that the “tolerant” fans of TAS are almost as open to constructive criticism as those of ARI.  It’s so refreshing to communicate with rational minds.

Robert—There is a pro-Palestinian website that posts an official statement recognizing Israel’s right to exist, while its’ daily commentaries advocate the total annihilation of the Zionist state.  I do not put a lot of stock in one explicit statement when it appears to be contradicted within the context of other statements I see from the same source. 
 
BTW, thanks for characterizing my comments as malicious.  I’m so glad we can keep this discussion on a high level.  It speaks so well of you and your organization.

One last point is all I will be able to stomach tonight:

Finally, and specifically, you contrast two quotations about the principle of justice during warfare. Here is the TAS statement as you quote it:

 

'While it is legitimate in war to risk civilian casualties, the military campaign should make every reasonable effort to avoid them. This is a matter of justice to those people in the affected countries who are not complicit in terror and who may themselves have been victims of terrorists and of the tyrants who harbor them. In addition, we have no real hope of eliminating terrorism unless such people agree that our cause is just and that our intentions toward them are benevolent.'


Now here is a comparable sentence from the ARI statement:

 

'That said, if it is possible to isolate innocent individuals—such as dissidents, freedom fighters, and children—without military cost, they should not be killed; it is unjust and against one’s rational self-interest to senselessly kill the innocent; it is good to have more rational, pro-America people in the world..."


I shall leave to minds far subtler than mine the task of detecting any substantive moral difference in these two position statements. The only difference I can detect is in emphasis and tone.

The difference is not at all subtle.  The first statement from TAS says explicitly: “the military campaign should make every reasonable effort to avoid civilian casualties…”  The second quote (from Brook & Epstein) says they should only be avoided if this can be done “without military cost.  The first quotation advocates using the avoidance of civilian casualties—innocent or otherwise--as a criterion for military strategy.  The second quote makes the obvious point that innocent civilians—if and when they can be isolated--should not be killed needlessly if it’s possible to avoid doing so, but that this should not be a key factor in determining military strategy. Winning the war should be the only factor in military strategy.

 

The difference is one of altruism vs rational self-interest.  Come to think of it, perhaps some members of TAS might have trouble seeing that. 

Dennis
 


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Post 25

Friday, July 28, 2006 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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The difference is not at all subtle.  The first statement from TAS says explicitly: “the military campaign should make every reasonable effort to avoid civilian casualties…”  The second quote (from Brook & Epstein) says they should only be avoided if this can be done “without military cost.
In the context of the complete statements, I see these two snippets as nearly identical. This appears to be the crux of the difference between us. You see difference where I (and others) don't. Both statements in their entirety convey, essentially, the same point. The only difference is stylistic.


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Post 26

Friday, July 28, 2006 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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There should be no doubt for people who've read my material over the years -- I've stated it explicitly often enough – know that I maintain that the purpose and goal of the American government is to protect the life, liberty and property of Americans.

I've also said -- and you'll see a major piece on this soon -- that every action should have specific purposes that accord with moral principles and that the best means to any purpose will always depend on context. That's a basic Objectivist principle.

I've also said -- see my means and ends of Islam piece -- that the ends are, in part, constituted in the means.

Further, I've said that determining what is the most moral and effective action in any situation will require judgment calls over which honest individuals can differ.

That said, consider the issue at hand:

*Contributing to the deaths of innocent people is something to be avoided. After all, they are innocent.

*I assume that many people in Middle Eastern countries with governments that hate us in fact don't support their repressive regimes, favor major regime change and can't escape from their own countries. Many are young children.

Thus we need to make judgment calls both about whether some policy -- nuking Iran -- is really the most efficient way to protect the lives, liberties and property of Americans -- I say no at this time -- and about whether there are means that further several ends at once, for example, protecting Americans and minimizing innocent deaths.

But there is no -- repeat, no -- magic formula to determine such questions outside of the actual situations and contexts, with all the complexities that we face in the real world.

This suggests that this parsing of what we imply -- as oppose to what Robert and myself have actually said -- misses the whole point about how principles should guide actions. Most of my pieces aim to help us better understand and apply principles. I often take stands on specific issues in specific contexts -- the Kelo eminent domain decision was wrong, Islamist terrorist acts are truly evil-- and people are welcome to disagree with me.

But my goal is not to simply offer a list of propositions out of all context -- innocent lives should be protected, America should do everything necessary to defeat Islamists -- with which individuals will then tick off their assent or dissent. And that is not the purpose of our organization.


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Post 27

Friday, July 28, 2006 - 10:39pmSanction this postReply
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Rather than waste my breath repeating myself, here are some additional quotes from “Just War Theory vs. American Self-Defense” by Yaron Brook and Alex Epstein:

 

Just War Theory regards all noncombatants as “innocents” with “rights” to be respected. We must, according to Elshtain, “make every effort to avoid killing noncombatants . . . women, children, the aged and infirm, all unarmed persons going about daily lives, and prisoners of war. . . .”
 
The requirements of “proportionality” and “discrimination” are deadly to the nation that takes them seriously. A nation fully committed to defending itself must value the lives of its citizens more than the lives of its enemy’s citizens; it must be morally confident in its goodness, in its right to exist, and of the rightness of killing whomever in enemy nations it must to preserve the lives and liberty of its citizens. Self-defense may well require killing more of the enemy’s citizens than the enemy has killed of ours. It is commonly necessary in war to break the spirit of a foreign people whose nation has initiated aggression in which they are complicit. This often requires killing civilians, and in some cases even targeting them, as America did in World War II. These actions were regarded as just by leaders who viewed civilians of enemy nations as part of the national war machine and rarely truly innocent—and who viewed any deaths of actual innocents, including children, as wholly the moral responsibility of the nation that initiated war.

Just War Theory forbids such tactics. …Many Just War theorists hold—as by their standard they are obliged to hold—that the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 was immoral. America, they claim, should have valued Japanese civilians over the hundreds of thousands of GIs who would have died invading Japan.

In the “War on Terrorism,” the U.S. is following the pronouncements of Just War Theory in regard to civilians with incredible dedication, and has received much acclaim among Just War theorists for doing so. In Elshtain’s evaluation of the war in Afghanistan, she writes:

The United States must do everything to minimize civilian deaths—and it is doing so. . . . The United States must investigate every incident in which civilians are killed—and it is doing so. The United States must make some sort of recompense for unintended civilian casualties, and it may be making plans to do so—an unusual, even unheard of, act in wartime.

 
What she does not mention—but what must never be forgotten—is the price that has been paid for such supposedly “just” conduct. That price is the hundreds of heroic American men and women who have been killed so that Afghans and Iraqis may live and their mosques may stand (to say nothing of whatever unknown price the rest of us will pay when the undefeated enemy next attacks America).

Still think the difference between the two positions is “stylistic”? 
 
And since the ‘spokespersons’ for TAS are so fond of smearing Brook and ARI with the accusation that he is the reincarnation of Dr. Strangelove, here is an actual quote (from the same article) explaining how he would approach the use of nuclear weapons in the Middle East:

Doing whatever is necessary in war means doing whatever is necessary. Once the facts are rationally evaluated, if it is found that using tactical nuclear weapons against Iran’s nuclear facilities or flattening Fallujah to end the Iraqi insurgency will save American lives, then these actions are morally mandatory, and to refrain from taking them is morally evil.
Brook and ARI take America’s self-defense and the sacrifice of innocent American lives seriously, while TAS hides its head in the Middle Eastern sand.  On this issue, TAS is not only gutless—it is an embarrassment to Objectivism.

Dennis


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Post 28

Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 7:52amSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

Sounds like Slim Pickens and a pretty good yeehaw to me. Look, I understand you've got a bee in your bonnet about TAS and foreign policy, but the problem here is that we've never needed to use nukes in Iraq, just a good dose of common sense. We needed to stay in Iraq just long enough to make sure there weren't weapons of mass destruction. A total of just over 200 soldiers died in the ground invasion, many of those in traffic accidents and helicopter crashes. That is 200 too many, but you can't fight a war without that level of casualties. The rest of the casualties are a nation building fiasco.

If we use nukes in a cavalier fashion, the whole world will never trust us again and we'll end up with bigger enemies than Al Qaeda to worry about.

Objectivists have never had a concensus on foreign policy. Ayn Rand was against the US fighting in World War II. My guess is that the current ARI leadership would have been for it. I would have been for it.

Jim

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 7/29, 8:01am)

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 7/29, 8:07am)


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Post 29

Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 8:42amSanction this postReply
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Dennis write: "And since the ‘spokespersons’ for TAS are so fond of smearing Brook and ARI with the accusation that he is the reincarnation of Dr. Strangelove..."

I'd be very interested to know where I wrote or said this?


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Post 30

Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Just War Theory regards all noncombatants as “innocents” with “rights” to be respected. We must, according to Elshtain, “make every effort to avoid killing noncombatants . . . women, children, the aged and infirm, all unarmed persons going about daily lives, and prisoners of war. . . .”


 
Dennis,

 How does making every [reasonable] effort to avoid the killing of innocents translate into sacrificing American troops? How are these things mutually exclusive of each other?  The article above is using Elshtain as a source where she is quoted as  saying: "every effort" but we see the the exact quote from TAS is: ".. the military campaign should make every reasonable effort to avoid them". Citing Elshtain drops the use of "reasonable" from the stance of TAS and quite clearly changes the context.

Just War Theory forbids such tactics. …Many Just War theorists hold—as by their standard they are obliged to hold—that the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 was immoral. America, they claim, should have valued Japanese civilians over the hundreds of thousands of GIs who would have died invading Japan.



Are we to understand then that by posting this part of the article, TAS is included in this claim about "many just war theorists" and if they are can you provide evidence in their writings to back up this assertion.

The article  also uses Jean Elshtain as a source on views of Just War Theory. Does Elshtain speak for TAS? Is Elshtains view synonymous with TAS'?




 
Doing whatever is necessary in war means doing whatever is necessary. Once the facts are rationally evaluated, if it is found that using tactical nuclear weapons against Iran’s nuclear facilities or flattening Fallujah to end the Iraqi insurgency will save American lives, then these actions are morally mandatory, and to refrain from taking them is morally evil.
Brook and ARI take America’s self-defense and the sacrifice of innocent American lives seriously, while TAS hides its head in the Middle Eastern sand.  On this issue, TAS is not only gutless—it is an embarrassment to Objectivism.



Then we are led to believe  that if a person is not in favor of using nuclear weapons against civilians they are not *really* in favor of  doing all that is necessary to protect American soldiers. Where is the argument from knowledgeable military experts  that our conventional weapons are not proving to be extremely effective in the theatre? 


L W



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Post 31

Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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In post #8, I refuted, point by point, Mr. Hardin's creative interpretations of "The Anatomy of Cooperation." But undeterred, in post #27 he continues to exhibit formidable artistic creativity as he caricatures positions taken by The Atlas Society and by me on foreign policy matters. In contrast to ARI, he says, TAS doesn't "take America’s self-defense and the sacrifice of innocent American lives seriously." TAS "hides it head in the sand of the Middle East," and takes "gutless" positions on matters of foreign policy.

I promised that I would challenge (time permitting) outright misrepresentations of TAS positions. Addressing Mr. Hardin's statements in this regard could give me fulltime employment. But let me offer just a few citations which ought to be sufficient to establish the true merits of his claims.

From the third installment of Roger Donway's three-part series "Rethinking Foreign Policy," which laid out the philosophical and practical considerations, Mr. Donway (then editor of publications for TOC) indicated how rational self-interest should apply to a number of specific cases:

[Regarding Iran]: "The seizure of the American embassy in Tehran was aggression against America more infamous than the attack on Pearl Harbor without a declaration of war. The regime that held American diplomats hostage should not have been allowed to exist for a week, even though such action would almost certainly have cost the diplomats their lives. That the same regime has since, in the Salman Rushdie incident, gone on to suppress free speech in America serves to underline the need for its extirpation."


(Hmmmm..."extirpation" of the Iranian regime. Sounds pretty uncompromising to me...)


[Regarding Somalia]: "This, too, is a relatively easy case. American television constantly beats the drums for sacrifice. Some of the needy are Americans (unemployed, homeless, or ill); some are foreigners (victims of floods, earthquakes, or famine). But the message is always the same: How dare you be happy while these people are in misery? How dare you live for yourself?

...

"Thus, I believe the mission to Somalia was altruist in the very worst sense of the term. It sacrificed American lives and money; it was not a proper function of government; and it lacked even the fig leaf of being directed at 'our fellow Americans.'

"Unfortunately, this idea of using the military for humanitarian tasks is becoming very popular, for a variety of motives. In many cases, I think, it is simply a ploy to retain large budgets for the Pentagon, in an era when the federal government is abandoning its legitimate roles for illegitimate ones. As the managing editor of a foreign policy journal, I recently received a manuscript suggesting the U.S. military take up the following new tasks: disaster relief; famine relief; nuclear reactor emergencies; drug maintenance and education programs; prison management; rural health care; toxic waste removal; public education; building infrastructure; and running inner-city boot camps for delinquent youth. The author of these proposals was not a professor of sociology at some elite liberal arts school. He was a professor of international affairs at one of the American military's war colleges."


(Hmmmm...could this statement by Mr. Donway be an example of how TAS doesn't "take America’s self-defense and the sacrifice of innocent American lives seriously"?)


[Regarding Haiti]: "I have said that America must have an abiding concern for islands of 'freedom.' I did not say 'democracy.' Democracy is a process by which a country chooses government officials, or, sometimes, passes laws. It has a certain philosophical connection with freedom: After all, if we are adult enough to run our own lives, surely we are adult enough to choose our own leaders. But we cannot look to the degree of democracy in a country's politics as a substitute for the degree of freedom...Insofar as Haitians on Haiti are suffering under the rule of Gen. Raoul Cédras, that is a humanitarian matter that may be of legitimate private concern to some individual Americans, but is not our government's concern. Insofar as Haitians are fleeing Haiti for the United States, I welcome them."


(Hmmmm...anyone see this as an example of TAS endorsing altruism?)


[Regarding Bosnia]: "To answer that question, I would begin by asking: If Bosnian Muslims were provided with enough assistance to win, would they then establish a free state? Or would they simply establish a Bosnian Muslim state? I very much fear the latter...I do not think Bosnia's Muslims are motivated by a desire for individual liberty, and, therefore, I do not think America should involve itself in the Bosnian war.

"This is a terribly high standard for American assistance, I realize. But if Americans are to fight for another people's liberty, it must be for individual liberty, not national or ethnic independence. Ethnicity is the principle destroying the world."


(Hmmmm...anyone out there see in this any signs of "gutlessness" or endorsements of "self-sacrifice" in American foreign policy?)

Now let us review. In his post #5, Mr. Hardin says this:
I noted several articles on Robert’s blog in which he appears to give explicit support to Bush’s altruistic approach to conducting this war. The one positive thing I had not seen before was Robert’s criticism of Bush’s foolish and tragic efforts at ‘democracy-building’ in that Middle Eastern garbage dump. The fact that both Robert and Edward seem to regard Bush’s policy as consistent with America’s moral right to use the full force of her military might in this global conflict only underscores my position.

Leaving aside how I could "appear to" give support that is simultaneously "explicit" (is it explicit, or isn't it?), consider my summary article about the disastrous consequences of philosophically blighted U.S. foreign policy -- posted on this site -- "Unilateral Moral Disarmament." Can anyone find a "gutless" word, or endorsement of foreign policy "self-sacrifice"?

And oh yes...how about my attacks on the Bush administration for its philosophically incoherent conduct of a "war on terrorism" while engaging in this sort of appeasement? and this kind of P.C. lunacy?

In the aftermath of 9/11, and before anyone else, The Atlas Society posted a large archive of articles on foreign policy, in the context of what we've called "the War for Civilization": go to this index page. These articles represented a range of perspectives from Objectivists about various aspects of that war.

Which brings us back to the topic of this thread. TAS is not an orthodoxy. We hold definite principles, many of whose implications are obvious and direct; and on these, we do not mince words or compromise.

However, regarding highly complicated issues of application -- such as matters of how national defense strategy applies to specific nations or circumstances -- we do not presume to advise military experts. On complex matters requiring factual expertise and in the face of differing contexts of knowledge, it is common even for individuals sharing the same philosophy to disagree about particulars.

This is a problem that orthodoxies do not have. All positions, even on complicated applications of principles, are simply laid down by the group's gurus, and all staff and members are expected to toe the Party Line. There's an elegant simplicity in running an organization when you are not confronted by the messy problem of allowing people to think, write, and speak for themselves.

But you see, TAS doesn't have the dubious benefit of such simplicity. After all, we take the term "rational individualism" seriously. Since it is TAS policy to serve as an open forum for those who share Objectivist principles -- but who may disagree with each other occasionally on their applications to certain complex, real-world circumstances -- it is always easy for orthodox-minded critics to cherry-pick an essay here, or op-ed there, then proclaim that TAS as an organization endorses that writer's particular application of Objectivism. After all, they are accustomed to group-think; therefore, they assume that anyone who ever appears on a TAS forum must be a "spokesman" for The Group.

However, the fairness and honesty of such critics can be gauged by whether they also acknowledge any of the essays and op-eds published by TAS which take the same "hardline," "uncompromising" positions that they, the critics, do.

You will note that our devout critics never do that.

While they struggle mightily to present an image of TAS as "gutless," "compromising," "wimpy," etc., observe the vast, vast number of hardline, uncompromising, in-your-face articles, lectures, op-eds, essays, reviews, etc., that we have issued, but which they studiously ignore.

Let me say it outright: this is completely dishonest. I would have said "intellectually dishonest," except that there is not a damned thing "intellectual" about it.

Let me close by also commending L. W. Hall for post #30, which takes note of the vital caveat missing from Mr. Hardin's caricature of the principled position we have taken regarding the targeting of innocents during battlefield conditions: the word "reasonable." Let me say it clearly: to jeopardize the lives of American troops solely to protect innocent civilians from harm is unreasonable and immoral -- unless there is a specific, rational military reason for assuming such risks.

For example, military commanders in a guerilla theater may rationally decide that it would be stupid to simply bomb civilian populations if a long-term military objective were to turn that population against enemy guerillas hiding in their midst. They might make this as a strategic military judgment, even if doing so allowed the guerillas to continue operating in the short run, and required Special Forces to target them more surgically, and at higher risk.

I am not so arrogant as to presume to overrule the judgments of military men in the field concerning such matters. But this does NOT constitute any endorsement of altruistic sacrifice of American troops in order to shield civilians from harm. It is an endorsement of long-term self-interest over short-term expediency.


Post 32

Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
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Please note that I will not respond to ad hominem attacks of the kind perpetrated by Mr. Bidinotto.  Once you descend to the level of attacking my intellectual honesty, I consider that you are confessing your own ineptitude at defending your position, and any further discussion of that individual’s (in this case rather pathetic) ‘arguments’ is terminated.

 

James—How can you possibly suggest that anyone has advocated “using nukes in a cavalier fashion”?  I find that remark difficult to comprehend.

 

Edward—Obviously I am not claiming that you ever used those exact words.  You made a dismissive remark about the folly of “nuking Iran” in a prior post on this thread.  Perhaps that was not directed at Brook or ARI, but that seemed to be the implication.  If that’s not what you intended, I stand corrected.  However, I do think that such a dismissive attitude accurately characterizes the views of many TAS critics of ARI.

 

Mr. Hall---If you do not see the similarity between Eshtain’s quote and TAS’ “Position Statement”—and the obvious implications-- I feel certain there is nothing more that I could say that would satisfy you.

 

Dennis

 

  

 

 


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Post 33

Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Just a point of clarification:

An ad hominem attack attempts to substitute a personal vilification for a substantive argument -- in effect, trying to dismiss someone's ideas by attacking his character instead. As Irving Copi describes it in his Introduction to Logic, "It is committed when, instead of trying to disprove the truth of what is asserted, one attacks the man who made the assertion."

However, you will note that in response to Mr. Hardin's claims, I did, in fact, offer substantive arguments and citations aplenty. My personal characterization came only at the end, as a conclusion...and not as a substitute for the necessary arguments that led me to that conclusion.

But why state my conclusion about him at all? You will recall that in a previous post, I exhorted Mr. Hardin to "play fair." He hasn't. It is he who has shown a noticeable eagerness to call us altruistic cowards, yet a remarkable shyness in citing actual references to back up his insults. Yet the insults continue unabated.

If he now doesn't like my characterization of his evasions, then he ought to refrain from being the first to launch personal insults like "gutless," or outrageous accusations that my colleagues and I don't take "the sacrifice of innocent American lives seriously," but prefer to "hide our heads in the Middle East sand." When someone decides to take off the gloves, then he should reasonably expect the targets of his incivilities to punch back.

However, I suppose that whining falsely about "ad hominems" is as good a way as any to continue to evade the substantive points I raised in refutation of his vacuous claims...and possibly to distract others from recalling them, too.

Post 34

Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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My intention in starting this thread was to offer some criticisms of TAS in the hope of encouraging certain changes in its policies.  At no time have I attacked anyone personally.  Mr. Bidinotto's eagerness to do so says a great deal more about him and his level of intellectual maturity than it does about me.

Dennis


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Post 35

Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

I would not use nuclear weapons in Iraq period. The only possible use of nuclear weapons in Iran would be if we determined that we could not reach underground nuclear facilities with conventional weapons. My guess is that if we determined a threat, we could flatten most of the country with conventional armament and could determine if nuclear weapons were necessary with long deliberation.

Yaron's trumpeting of the nuclear option is not good. I doubt that either ARI or TOC will have any effect on foreign policy. What Yaron's nuclear posturing will do is have a negative effect on Objectivism's reputation.

Jim

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 7/29, 6:29pm)

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 7/29, 6:30pm)

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 7/29, 7:48pm)


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Post 36

Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis,


Mr. Hall---If you do not see the similarity between Eshtain’s quote and TAS’ “Position Statement”—and the obvious implications-- I feel certain there is nothing more that I could say that would satisfy you.

 






We're not talking about similarities(or at least I'm not), we're discussing statements taken out of context. Two different statements having similarities does not equate to them having the exact same meaning, but I have read enough of your posts to believe that you know this already. Whether or not you want to admit that that is what you were trying to do when comparing Elshtain's quotes with statements made by TAS is another matter entirely.

I also noticed you made no effort to address my questions on whether or not Elshtain spoke for TAS. Of course there is no requirement for you to do so, but the question remains open and obvious to anyone who reads these posts. I would think that if she did speak for them you would be glad to make it clear so you could show a  contradiction in the two reported stances..

L W 


(Edited by Mr. L W Hall on 7/30, 9:11pm)


Post 37

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 2:18amSanction this postReply
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After catching up on some much-needed sleep—I regret that I do not have the time to devote to this that others seem to have—I want to offer a summation of my thoughts on the issues addressed in this thread.  As I see it, an Objectivist organization can reasonably welcome diverse viewpoints, and should do so, but it should not imply a sanction of all those various viewpoints as if they were equally valid.  Welcoming dissident viewpoints amounts to tolerance of opposing viewpoints and shows confidence in one’s ability to defend one’s own position.  Sanctioning such views as having equal merit in the eyes of the organization, however, constitutes a form of subjectivism.  TAS has done this by its silence in areas where voicing a consistent Objectivist viewpoint would potentially alienate many of its members. 

 

For an Objectivist organization to refrain from advocating positions that are clearly and demonstrably consistent with Objectivist principles is directly contradictory to Objectivist metaphysics and epistemology.  It implies epistemological agnosticism, which is antithetical to a philosophy of objective realism. If avoiding any suggestion of orthodoxy is the goal, an Objectivist organization such as TAS could publish commentaries contrary to key positions it has adopted, and explicitly label them as such.

 

A policy of generalized neutrality—when extended to fundamentals and well-established derivative principles—amounts to an endorsement of skepticism. Within a philosophy where the logic and proof of key viewpoints is demonstrable, the areas designated as being open to serious doubt are necessarily delimited.  When neutrality is extended to critical areas of ethics and politics—including the life and death consequences of governmental policies (as opposed to more technical issues of philosophy), it becomes a violation of the Objectivist ethics—an ethics which, by its very nature, demands application to every important aspect of daily living.  (Technical issues would include such issues as the nature of the first choice in morality, the metaphysical status of so-called ‘empty space,’ et. al.)

 

I am not prepared to fully articulate where the lines on open debate should be drawn, but I can say they would clearly encompass the absolutism of reality, the unqualified validity of human knowledge, the ethical principle of rational self-interest and the extension of these principles into the sphere of politics: limited government, individual rights and national self-defense.  It is this last issue that largely inspired my analysis of this entire issue. I was (and continue to be) utterly bewildered by TAS’ reticence with respect to voicing America’s moral right to take whatever actions are needed to defeat an enemy dead-set on our destruction.  America’s future is imperiled by a deadly altruistic cultural assault on this nation’s right to take whatever military actions are needed to assure its survival. 

 

For an Objectivist organization to refrain from mounting a public campaign to clarify the moral principles underlying a rational approach to foreign policy—in much the same manner that ARI has done—suggests a major failing with respect to philosophical fundamentals.

 

As noted above, TAS has not only failed to come to the defense of America’s right of self-defense; it has adopted positions directly contrary to a rational moral stance on national defense.  In its public pronouncements and commentaries, it has given tacit endorsement to the Bush administration’s compassionate war strategy—including the explicit principles of Just War theory--in spite of its transparently altruistic base. 

 

For TAS to consistently represent the Objectivist philosophy, their position on this matter—and the underlying organizational premises of neutrality and implicit subjectivism—must be clearly and unqualifiedly reversed.   If TAS does not begin speaking out with a clear voice in the name of America’s absolute right of self-defense, they are helping to undermine the one philosophical influence—Objectivism—that could potentially save America’s future. 

 

Dennis  

 


Post 38

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 3:03amSanction this postReply
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James,

I disagree that ARI will not have a significant influence.  Earlier this evening, I heard Yaron Brook being interviewed on a local radio station--KFI--with a huge audience in the Los Angeles area.  The subject was national self-defense, and the radio interviewer was clearly sympathetic to Brook's position that Israel and America have every right to do whatever is necessary to defeat those who want to destroy them.  The interview specifically addressed the question of killing (and even targeting) innocent civilians when necessary, and the fact that our current philosophical climate makes this issue extremely difficult for people to understand.   

It is only a morality of rational self-interest that will resolve that cultural confusion.  If Objectivists don't take the lead in that battle, we are doomed.  The fact that Brook finds numerous popular media outlets for expressing what is clearly a very controversial and unpopular viewpoint provides at least some basis for hope.

L.W.,

The two quotations about the moral necessity for minimizing civilian deaths are self-sufficient and clear without any need for further context.  There is no significant difference between "making every effort" and "making every reasonable effort."  Either phrasing is intended to impose the exact same altruistic restriction on the legitimate options available to military strategists.  Either a nation under attack has the right and obligation to do whatever is necessary to defend itself, or it doesn't.  Go ahead and make whatever assumptions you want about my wish to foster misinterpretation.  I am perfectly willing to have anyone judge me and my conclusions on the evidence as presented.  Further discussion on the points you bring up would be completely irrelevant.

Dennis


Post 39

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 6:28amSanction this postReply
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Given the absence of any specific citations to back up his claims against TAS, I found but one sentence in Mr. Hardin's two preceding posts with which I am in complete agreement -- his closing one:

"Further discussion on the points you bring up would be completely irrelevant."

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