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Post 40

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 4:41pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

ARI has been in existence for 21 years. What foreign policy changes during that time can be linked to them? What is the time scale during which  you expect their influence in foreign policy to become evident?

Jim


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Post 41

Saturday, August 5, 2006 - 2:27amSanction this postReply
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Jim,

 

With respect to your first question: Clearly none.  In fact, I have been a staunch critic of ARI for most of their history.  Under Peikoff’s near-sighted stewardship, they have managed to alienate much of the public to the potential of Objectivism for improving this world.  Their eagerness to condemn those who might disagree with their radical ideas as immoral has served to stifle Objectivism’s growth.  I wrote about this here, if you’re curious.

 

However, I think the present world situation—as horribly disgusting as it is—actually has provided an unusual opportunity for ARI (and TAS, too, for that matter, if they would open their eyes to it).  We could not ask for a better way to demonstrate the value of an ethics of rational self-interest, and the contrast between a morality of life and the deadly consequences of altruism.  ARI is making the most of that opportunity, showing exactly what rational selfishness means when applied to a world crisis of monumental proportions.

 

Look at the current situation in Lebanon, and the terms in which that battle is being fought.  In a way, the terrorists are much smarter than the Western nations they want to destroy.   It is almost as though their leaders read Rand and grasped exactly how to use the sanction of the victim –they are using our values against us.   They can kill all the Israeli civilians they want with virtual impunity, but let one Israeli bomb wipe out a few of the civilians they are using as human shields, and Israel is made to grovel for exercising its right of self-defense.  The exact same double standard has prevented our military from doing what it needed to do in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

Here is a vivid demonstration of the bankruptcy and self-destructiveness of religious-altruist ethics, on a grand scale.  We must adhere to “Just War” theory and “make every effort” to avoid civilian deaths while they are free to attack our civilians and plot our ultimate destruction.  As long as we adhere to that standard, the terrorists will continue to thrive. 

 

(Meanwhile, over at the executive offices of TAS, the prattle continues…  “Well, what’s the difference between minimizing civilian deaths and sparing innocent lives when doing so serves no military purpose?”  The obvious answer, of course, is: In war, the government does not do anything that does not serve a military purpose, so any such stipulation is pointless unless it is intended to limit military strategy.) 

 

Until and unless we gain the moral self-confidence to take whatever action is necessary to destroy the enemy—i.e., until we begin to recognize the virtue of rational self-interest—we will continue to lose ground.  And time is rapidly running out.  Iran—and perhaps Al Quaida as well—will soon have the nukes they need to wipe us out.

 

Because the issue is one of life and death, more and more people seem to be willing to rethink the moral premises that have led to this mess.  Our task is clarify the alternatives in the clearest possible terms.  It may well be too late, but ARI is making a noble effort, and at least some people are beginning to pay attention.

 

Dennis

 

 


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Post 42

Saturday, August 5, 2006 - 7:08amSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

There is no significant difference between "making every effort" and "making every reasonable effort."  Either phrasing is intended to impose the exact same altruistic restriction on the legitimate options available to military strategists

So I am to believe that you can throw away one of the defining words in the sentence and act as if it never existed, in order to come to agreement with you on the false conclusion you are arriving at?  Does that about sum it up?

If I were to send you out to kill the enemy and tell you to "make every effort" not to kill the innocent, I can see how you could interpret that as meaning to risk your or your soldiers lives if necessary to keep from doing so. However if on the other hand I were to tell you to go out and kill the enemy and "make every reasonable effort" to not kill the innocent - which would mean using sound judgment concerning not putting your lives in jeopardy to accomplish the same mission - then you would have a whole new set of criteria as to how far you should be willing to go for the successful completion of the same goal. The difference in the two sentences is drastic in it's implications and if you cannot see that then so be it.  

One last time I am going to bring up your citing of the Brook and Epstein article's  quoting of Elshtain when attacking one segment of "just war theory" and your attempt at tying it in with TAS. I have yet to see any proof from you that  TAS in fact endorses the opinions of Elshtain. Untill such time and based on your misrepresentation of the wording of TAS' stance I will have to believe you are being disingenuous.

L W


 


 

(Edited by Mr. L W Hall on 8/05, 8:53am)


Post 43

Saturday, August 5, 2006 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
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L.W.,

 

Are you suggesting that a military commander would only want his lieutenants to use sound judgment if he injected the word ‘reasonable’ into his orders?  Surely not.  Tragically, as it stands today, military officers are taught that it is legitimate and reasonable to sacrifice themselves and their soldiers during battle.  To say that "reasonable" translates to "not putting your lives in jeopardy" is to read something into the quote that is not there.

 

I am not contending that TAS endorses Eshtain’s views on Just War theory.  I am contending that they endorse the specific quote regarding the minimizing of civilian deaths, since their Position Statement repeats it almost verbatim.

 

I need a drink.

 

Dennis

(Edited by Dennis Hardin on 8/05, 3:27pm)


Post 44

Saturday, August 5, 2006 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

I appreciate your willingness to engage this topic. Even though we disagree, you've clearly given it a lot of thought.

Jim


Post 45

Saturday, August 5, 2006 - 6:19pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

Many thanks.  Thought makes for clarity, and--as radio talk host Dennis Prager likes to say--clarity is more important than agreement.

Dennis


Post 46

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 6:50amSanction this postReply
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I think that in regards to the death of civilians - I am not going to say innocents as they may or may not be innocent - that we need to take a long, hard look at it.  In the context of total war, I agree that for the most part they cost to enemy civilians should not be regarded, although not targeted specifically. However, that means if there are troops in a town, or a factory building stuff for the war, bombs away.  That describes WW II.  In retrospect, certain types of bombing were less effective in ending the war than others, but never forget the benefits of hindsight make what at the time must have been a hard decision seem obvious. 

However, today we are not truly in a "total war" but instead are in a long, low-intensity war, rather a long conflict with peace and war not clearly defined, with enemies not clearly defined.  It is not the same.  That said, it clearly needs to be demonstrated that any use of civilians as "shields" must be completely ignored, and the moral stupidity of this concept demonstrated as often as possible.  However, I don't ascribe to the idea of ARI that we should just blast everyone.  Maybe southern Lebanon should be blasted by the Israelis, however.


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Post 47

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 2:11pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt said: "However, today we are not truly in a "total war" but instead are in a long, low-intensity war, ... "

 

That statement, Kurt, is right on the mark, and what’s more, it's exactly what our enemies are counting on. The threat from Islam continues to be a great threat, precisely because the United States has responded to their "total war", with a "low-intensity war". Which further explains, why, nearly 5 years after 9-11; Iran's nuclear facilities have yet to be destroyed, Syria is still one giant training ground for innumerable terror groups, and untold billions (that should have been spent for our total war) have instead been spent on nation building.

 

George

 

 


Post 48

Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 6:50amSanction this postReply
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Maybe, George, but I think that ultimately the best strategy is not so easy as either "disengage and leave the rest of the world to its own devices" or "kill them all" either.  However, the ultimate advantage is to us, not the other way around.  The forces of order actually do exceed those of disorder.  I am sure you have read my thoughts on this before, but I basically ascribe to Thomas PM Barnett's "shrink the gap" strategy.  I still find it the best vision that combines killing the bad guys and maintaining and creating lasting stability and peace.

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Post 49

Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:11amSanction this postReply
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The essence of Barnett’s “shrink the gap” theory seems well summarized in the following quote:

“The Middle East has long been a neighborhood of bullies eager to pick on the weak. Israel is still around because it has become—sadly—one of the toughest bullies on the block. The only thing that will change that nasty environment and open the floodgates for change is if some external power steps in and plays Leviathan full-time. Taking down Saddam, the region’s bully-in-chief, will force the U.S. into playing that role far more fully than it has over the past several decades, primarily because Iraq is the Yugoslavia of the Middle East—a crossroads of civilizations that has historically required a dictatorship to keep the peace. As baby-sitting jobs go, this one will be a doozy, making our lengthy efforts in postwar Germany and Japan look simple in retrospect.
“But it is the right thing to do, and now is the right time to do it, and we are the only country that can. Freedom cannot blossom in the Middle East without security, and security is this country’s most influential public-sector export. By that I do not mean arms exports, but basically the attention paid by our military forces to any region’s potential for mass violence. We are the only nation on earth capable of exporting security in a sustained fashion, and we have a very good track record of doing it.”

From The Pentagon’s New Map: War and Peace in the 21st Century, by Thomas P.M. Barnett

This is clearly a defense of our current policy of using our military for “baby-sitting” a foreign country that has proven itself incapable of quelling the forces of unrest, internal and external.  We are to invest our human (i.e., the lives of our soldiers) and economic resources in the cause of "nation-building," thereby narrowing the "gap" between a backward civilization and more economically advanced regions of the globe.  I could not disagree more with such a policy.

 

When a country is at war, it has to use all of its power to fight and win as fast as possible.  It cannot fight and non-fight at the same time.  It cannot send its soldiers to die as cannon fodder, forbidding them to win.  When a country is at war, its leaders cannot prattle about “cultural exchanges” and about “building bridges” to the enemy, as our leaders are doing—trade bridges to bolster the enemy’s economy and enable it to produce the planes and guns which are killing our own soldiers.  When a nation resorts to war, it has some purpose, and the only justifiable purpose is self-defense.

 

Our national leaders tell us that we must defend Iraq’s right to hold a “democratic” election, and to vote itself into theocracy, if it wishes, provided it does so by vote—which means that we are not fighting for any political ideal or any principle of justice, but only for unlimited majority rule, and that the goal for which American soldiers are dying is to be determined by somebody else’s vote.  They tell us that we must defend Iraq’s right to “national self-determination”—and that anyone upholding the national sovereignty of the United States is an isolationist, that nationalism is evil, that the globe is our homeland and we must be prepared to die for any part of it, except the continent of North America.

 

President Bush’s plans for spending billions of dollars for the development of Iraq means that we are fighting for the privilege of turning every American taxpayer into a serf laboring part of his time for the benefit of his Middle Eastern masters.  In today’s conditions, the only rational alternative is to fight that war and win it as fast as possible.

 

When a foreign [enemy] initiates the use of armed force against us, it is our moral obligation to answer by force—as promptly and unequivocally as is necessary to make it clear that the matter is nonnegotiable.

 

If this sounds like another “nuke them all” (as their detractors like to say) ARI commentary, it isn’t.  With the exception of the first paragraph, the words are those of Ayn Rand herself.   The above is an exact word for word quote (with a few obvious substitutions, since her topic was Vietnam) from “The Wreckage of the Consensus,” written in April, 1967.  [The final paragraph is also a Rand quote, from “The Lessons of Vietnam,” written in May, 1975.]

 
Dennis
(Edited by Dennis Hardin on 8/14, 1:28pm)


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Post 50

Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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As per Mr. Hardin’s remark way back in post 34, we welcome constructive criticism and discussion about our organization and the thoughts of those of us associated with the organization. After all, we’re the opened and tolerant Objectivist organization!

 

Mr. Hardin’s posts offer an opportunity to reflect on several errors in thinking that we find among many individuals, Objectivists included, which, if corrected, would clear up a lot of misunderstanding among Objectivists. (This post does not address all of the details of the foreign policy discussion on this thread -- as interesting as they are -- but focuses more on methodological matters.)

 

1. Obsession? Mr. Hardin seems at times to have a fixation on the need for TAS as an organization to acknowledge one phrase to the effect that America should do anything necessary in the war against terrorism. He doesn’t seem to disagree with us on some fundamental principle, for example, on the purpose of government, on whether Objectivism is an open or closed system, or with the evaluation by myself, Robert or others concerning the moral nature of Islamists and their threat to the civilized world. Even though we’ve been clear that America has a right – indeed, it is the purpose of government – to protect the life, liberty and property of Americans, and even in the face of our strong and unambiguous stand against Islamists, there seems a strange fixated here on the importance of assent to that one particular phrase concerning America's use of any means in the war on terror.

 

Mr. Hardin says that for that reason he has had no past association with us, he is unlikely to have any future association with us either. That, of course, is his right and if he finds more in common with other groups, fine. But no doubt he has much more in common with TAS than with many other groups. That's why it's odd that he focuses on this one small seeming and perceived (but by no means clear) difference. This is a form of behavior found in too many Objectivists.

 

2. Hermeneutics and implications.  At times Mr. Hardin’s analysis of the various points made in writings by Robert and I seem like a strange form of hermeneutics, almost like something you’d expect from religious scholars approaching a holy text. (I think my writings are pretty darn good but as an Objectivist I hardly think of them as written by heavenly hands on stone tablets!) This approach is also reminiscence of the approach taken to political philosophy by the followers of Leo Strauss. This approach, a kind of textual analysis, focuses on words and their various and possibly contradictory meanings. But an Objectivist approach would focus on phenomena themselves and an evaluation of them by specific, contextual (see below) standards.

 

For example, it is quite valid to ask about Israel’s moral culpability for innocent deaths in the current fighting in Lebanon. (I’d argue that the blame is on Hezbullah members, whose goal is to kill innocent Israelis and who hide among innocent people who they know could die when Israel rightly tries to eliminate them. And some of those civilians probably support Hezbullah and thus are not altogether innocent.) But the best approach is not a hermeneutical analysis of what Robert or I imply about a certain principle in a given situation. The best approach is just to ask us!

 

Mr. Hardin draws implications with seeming abandon even as we point out that his projections are not what Robert or I are saying. Thus, for example, I wrote, “Thus we need to make judgment calls both about whether some policy -- nuking Iran -- is really the most efficient way to protect the lives, liberties and property of Americans -- I say no at this time – ...“ (Incidentally, while I very much oppose using nukes at this time and think such an action would be irresponsible and not make America more secure, I certainly conceive of cases in which using nukes might be the best means to our ends.)

 

With his strange hermeneutics, Mr. Hardin translates my remake thus: “the ‘spokespersons’ for TAS are so fond of smearing Brook and ARI with the accusation that he is the reincarnation of Dr. Strangelove.”

 

How can someone look at the first sentence and mistaken it for the second? We as Objectivists must take care to focus on the phenomena under consideration. When we see such errors we might reflect on the mode of analysis and implication.

 

3. Context. One of Rand’s unique contributions to epistemology and ethics is her understanding of the importance of context. The application of principles to achieve particular aims always must be considered in context. Thus it would be a mistake to make the blanket statement that America should do anything necessary to fight the war against terrorists.

 

What about acting like terrorists? What about kidnapping small children from Middle Eastern countries, slowly torturing them to death, filming these murders, broadcasting them and telling the populations of Pakistan, Lebanon and other countries that we will continue to do this until they turn over or kill all known terrorists in their midst?

 

Absurd? Yes, but by what moral standards and in terms of which various ends, in addition to fighting terrorists, do we reject this tactic? That is the sort of question we always must ask. We can still judge, for example, concerning Israel in the present conflict, but such judgments will be in terms of various legitimate goals in particular contexts.

 

In the war against Islamo-Fascists (or any enemy of reason and freedom) there will be tough calls to make. Honest individuals can disagree. Mr. Hardin, ARI associates, TAS associates, Robert and I might each have different evaluations of what is the best action or strategy in a particular context. For example, one might oppose America's continued involvement in Iraq because remaining there does little to enhance American security and diverts resources from more serious threats -- Iran, North Korea, possibly Venezuela. In addition, I would add that the culture in Iraq is so corrupt, tribal and religiously-fanatical that there's little prospect of America establishing a government there that will be friendly to us and an ally in the war against Islamo-fascists. On the other hand, one might argue that to leave Iraq now would result in a victory of militant, Islamo-fascist pro-Iranian faction.

 

By the way, many critics of Israel's actions against Hezbullah make a similar methodological error (to say nothing of moral errors) when they complain, out of context, that Israel's response was "disproportionate." In World War II the Japanese killed nearly 200,000 American soldiers while Americans killed at least 1.7 million Japanese, including civilians in conventional and atomic bombings. That's ten of them to ever one of us. Disproportionate? Yes. But would a better alternative have been one million Americans and one million Japanese killed? Were there ways for America to win while reducing deaths on all sides? By the way, in retrospect, the fire-bombing of German cities -- to which some allied leaders objected on moral grounds -- probably didn't shorten the war. Counter-force strategies work better.

 

The point, which I made in more detail earlier, is that Mr. Hardin and all good Objectivists should appreciate the importance of context when making judgments concerning any actions in the real world and not take the applications of principles out of context.

 

I hope this post clears up some methodological matters.

(Edited by Ed Hudgins on 8/14, 7:51pm)


Post 51

Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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For sure, context is so overlooked in discussions around, whether here or other forums - given lipservice, perhaps, but understood and applied, very questionable.....

Post 52

Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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This is clearly a defense of our current policy of using our military for “baby-sitting” a foreign country that has proven itself incapable of quelling the forces of unrest, internal and external.  We are to invest our human (i.e., the lives of our soldiers) and economic resources in the cause of "nation-building," thereby narrowing the "gap" between a backward civilization and more economically advanced regions of the globe.  I could not disagree more with such a policy.

Neither could I. There is nothing the US can do in the Middle East. There is no good guy in this conflict, or in others. It is a quagmire that the US never should have entered.


Post 53

Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Israel's response was "disproportionate."
The response was disproportionate because Israel attacked many people who did not support Hezbollah. It is not the government of Lebanon.


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Post 54

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:11amSanction this postReply
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Israel's response was "disproportionate."
The response was disproportionate because Israel attacked many people who did not support Hezbollah. It is not the government of Lebanon.


I look at it this way: if someone, it doesn't matter who, is firing a gun at you, and trying to kill you, what do you do? Assuming you are armed, you will shoot back, in an effort to preserve your own life. But what if this person is occupying a house, full of people who are not trying to kill you. For me, the answer is the same. I will shoot back, and attempt to end the threat to my life. I will not intentionally aim at those who do not target me, but if in innocent bystander is struck by accident, the responsibility will lie soley with the agressor who targeted me. The only other option is to surrender and embrace death. And then there are those who passively accepted the actions of my agressor and allowed to him to shoot from the house. They are just as guilty.

Before Israel began bombing, it dropped leaflets urging civilians to evacuate the area. Hezbollah deliberately targets Israeli civilians. Those who sympathize and aid Hezbollah get what they deserve. Those who are truly innocent, have no none but Hezbollah to blame. Chris seems as if he would rather see Israel accept daily bombings and the murder of its citizens rather than act to defend itself.


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Post 55

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
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Israel's response WAS disproportionate: it was nowhere near as tough, or as enduring, as it should have been.

Post 56

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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But what if this person is occupying a house, full of people who are not trying to kill you. For me, the answer is the same. I will shoot back, and attempt to end the threat to my life.
Let's say the house has two floors, and you know the shots are coming from the second floor. Is it justified to shoot at the first floor? Is it practical?


Post 57

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 1:50pmSanction this postReply
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Let's say the house has two floors, and you know the shots are coming from the second floor. Is it justified to shoot at the first floor? Is it practical?
Chris, I answered that question in my post when I said
I will not intentionally aim at those who do not target me
So, to anticipate your argument, if Israel deliberately targets civilians and only civilians, it is unjust. But if they are targeting Hezbollah and innocents are killed in the process, the moral responsibility is with Hezbollah (the agressor). 


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Post 58

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
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Did anyone see the segment on Jill Carroll, the journalist who was kidnapped in Iraq and then freed? She had some interesting stories to tell about the family members of the kidnappers, such as Muslim women who talked passionately and glowingly about becoming suicide bombers and aiding the terrorists' cause. The portrait she painted was of a culture that uniformly buys into the war against the West, with wives and children sharing the terrorists' ideals and being willing to assist them in any way they can. Is this so surprising. These people all share the same philosophy, the same religion, the same perverse, anti-life sense of values. Why wouldn't they share the terrorists' ideals and goals? And we're supposed to go out of our way in order scrupulously to avoid harming women and children, because they're "innocent." If you believe that, then I know a religion that you might like to join.

- Bill

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Post 59

Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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Bill -- I saw part of the interview. The culture in Iraq, the Palestinian areas and elsewhere in the Middle East truly is centered on the worship of death.
See my piece on this here:
http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-43-1569-The_Means_and_Ends_of_Islamists_.aspx

As Bin Laden himself said of his terrorists, “These youth love death as you love life.” No wonder in the six years since Israel left Lebenon that Hezbollah has not focused on educating the youth, building businesses and enterprises, etc. but training fanatics whose chief goal is to kill Jews. They even use the Nazi salute and marching style.

It is perhaps the sickest culture in the past several centuries. Except for the most fanatical Nazis, even most German supporters of Hitler retained elements of civilization, and those elemets that were domant during the Third Reich were fortunately recovered by many after the war and rebuilt their country. In Islamo-fascist societies, there is often nothing to recover. It's often garbage all the way down.

(Edited by Ed Hudgins on 8/16, 4:18pm)

(Edited by Ed Hudgins on 8/16, 8:27pm)

(Edited by Ed Hudgins on 8/17, 6:41am)


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