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Post 240

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
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Ed:

Re: constrained vs unconstrained visions.

I'd defer you to Thomas Sowell's book, "A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles"  ISBN 0-688-07951-2. 

I'll try to summarize:

The unconstrained vision of mankind/human nature sees all men/all of mankind as each individually perfectable and thus, perfectable in total. Not just individuals, but all of society is a blank slate to be molded into a society of morally superior beings.  If there are individual instances of failure to be perfect, then it is the failure of society to bring out this perfection. With a properly constructed world, all of mankind is perfectable. So, folks with this belief of mankind in general seek to construct laws and institutions that move towards a guarantee of evoking this goal of universal perfectability.  Mankind--all of mankind, as a group, as a collective, has unconstrained potential to perfection, and it is the mission of the group/collective to realize this unconstrained universal perfection.  The unconstrained view holds that the goal of equal outcomes for all is the definition of justice, and the existence of unequal outcomes for all is the defacto proof of injustice.   In their vision of mankind, if there exist unequal outcomes, it can only be as the result of coercion or injustice or unfairness.  A synonym for unconstrained is 'utopic.' 

The constrained vision of mankind/human nature recognizes individual limitations/capabilities, so mankind as a whole is constrained by individual/pragmatic realities and capabilities. Folks with this point of view in general seek to construct laws and institutions that acknowledge these individual limitations/capabilities, and simply punish/discourage traits that are seen as bad, and reward/encourage traits that are seen as good.   If utopic is a synonym for unconstrained, then 'pragmatic/pessimistic' can be applied to constrained.  'Pessimistic' on the subject of collective mankind's ability to realize utopia. 

In the constrained view, the 'rule of law' is based on enforcing an even playing field, fair set of rules that are equally applied to all, then play the game, so that any outcomes realized are realized 'fairly' and are thus just outcomes.

In the unconstrained view, the 'rule of law' is based on enforcing equal outcomes as the defacto proof of a fairly played game--even if it requires an unequal set of rules to be applied to realize those outcomes.   In this worldview, that is 'justified' in the pursuit of justice, to compensate for 'unfair advantage,' 'unfair advantage' being a requirement to realize unequal outcomes.

In the constrained view of education, education is primarily taken, not given; it is at best well offered, and failure is the fault of the inadequate taker.   In the unconstrained view of education, education is primarily given, and failure is the fault of the inadequate providers.

These views result in two totally intractable views of 'justice' which define modern political struggle.  The pragmatic result in America is, a stand-off/tug of war compromise in which neither view is fully realized.  A never ending balance between two intractable views of 'justice', with both polar groups passionately fighting for their view of justice.

Kurt Vonnegut's 1961 short essay on equality in 2081, "Harrison Bergeron" is a pithy description what would happen if the constrained vision folks ever let go of their end of the rope.  What floors me is that it was written in 1961.

To balance that, here are some related quotes I found on 'equality' from de Tocqueville's observations in "Democracy in America":

 "There is indeed a manly and legitimate passion for equality which rouses in all men a desire to be strong and respected.  This passion tends to elevate the little man to the rank of the great.  But the human heart also nourishes a debased taste for equality, which leads the weak to want to drag the strong down to their level and which induces men to prefer equality in servitude to inequality in freedom.  It is not that peoples with a democratic social state naturally scorn freedom; on the contrary, they have an instinctive taste for it.  But freedom is not the chief and continual object of their desires; it is equality for which they feel an eternal love; they rush on freedom with quick and sudden impulses, but if they miss their mark they resign themselves to their disappointment; but nothing will satisfy them without equality, and they would rather die than lose it" (57).

"No matter how a people strives for it, all the conditions of life can never be perfectly equal.  Even if, by misfortune, such an absolute dead level were attained, there would still be inequalities of intelligence which, coming directly from God, will ever escape the laws of man" (537-538).

"When inequality is the general rule in society, the greatest inequalities attract no attention.  When everything is more or less level, the slightest variation is noticed.  Hence the more equal men are, the more insatiable will be their longing for equality" (538).

Of course both sides view the other sides definition of justice as invalid, so let the games begin.

There are some generalizations that fall from the constrained/unconstrained worldview, but I'm not sure they are perfect correlations.  For example, 'conservative/liberal.'    As well, some objectivists might be somewhat orthogonal on these axes, as some often express beliefs which could be characterized as utopic when considering grandiose plans for society at large.

I'd recommend Sowell's book.  It's now 20 years old(hard to believe, I must have blinked), but I think it does shed light on the nature of modern political struggle.

regards,
Fred


 


Post 241

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:31amSanction this postReply
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What does History Have to do with Anything?

Kurt there was a period of over 100 years of civil war before the period covered in that most excellent HBO series. The Republican system had long broken down because the Senatorship and Roman Citizenship had not been expanded to areas outside Rome after the conquests of the late Republic. Rich men ruled those lands and the grain supply and bought off the vote of the people. (It would have been as if after the American Revolution, no new States had been admitted, and the west was ruled as private agricultural fiefdoms protected by the Continental Army but outside the system of the Federal Constitution - or as if Texas and California and Hawaii were never admitted as states, but were held for a century as "protectorates" like Puerto Rico, but unlike Puerto Ricans were denied citizenship.) There were the revolts of the Gracchi and the various dictatorships and triumvirates all for a century before Augustus. I'd recommend Durant's Caesar and Christ.

But, of course, it doesn't seem to matter what evidence I adduce here, Rand wrote it - in the margin - and without proof - just like Fermat, so facts be damned, a fantasy world of purely voluntary taxation (and private police forces contra Rand - don't ask me how) is obviously just around the corner. I'm obviously just a damn pragmatist blinded by reality and history and standing in the way of progress. I've got a right to justice without taxes and I'm just going to keep chanting that until it comes true, like a prayer. I don't have to present a plan of action! The burden of proof is on those who want to deny the efficacy of prayer. I'm glad, really. This debate is moot. It means none of us will have to do anything other than sit on our syllogisms to achieve this promised utopia. Historical Determinism and utopian visions have such a wonderful track record.

Ted Keer

Post 242

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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Bill:

Sam, in order for your contribution to be truly voluntary, you should be able to earmark it for those government functions that you approve of.
I love that idea, and have often suggested the same solution in discussions like this.   If we can have a short from 1040, and a long form 1040, then we should be able to opt for a 'really long form 1040', that allows us to distribute our taxes.   That way, folks are only paying for that which they support, and could sleep at night.   But, they'd still have to learn to live with the hairshirt of what their neighbors support.

Why this could work:

1] What is killing a few more trees?   Besides, in this day and age, this could and should be totally on line/automated.   Wouldn't even have to check your math, just allocate % into line item programs at some level of detail.   America's tendency on average for faulty math would be renormalized to 100%, then reallocated proportionately to equal 100%.

2] Few people would actually elect this option.  I mean, long 1040 is already long enough.  But, the option would be there.  Folks not specifying their distribution would be enabling Congress to do with as they please, per the present model.  Congress would still be free to glad hand/wrestle with revenue as they do now.

3] Who says the the random American body politic is going to distribute revenue that much differently than their elected representation anyway?   Whatever 'imbalance' results from the net result of the tiny subset of folks who are actually going to take the time to complete long form 1040 can be 'remedied' by the glad-handing crony politicos in Congress using their current brand of eternal wisdom.

4] ...meaning, in reality, the IRS, upon receipt of the long allocation form, could just silently trash it, and nobody would be the wiser anyway.  But, we'd feel better.


Why this will never happen:

4] For the same reason the Electorate College chooses the POTUS.   We are, on average, children, participating in an elaborate political show, in the role of audience members.

5] It would be pointless, because folks will never learn to live with the hairshirt of what their neighbors support.   It's what makes The Tribe "The Tribe."

regards,
Fred


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Post 243

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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“My own view is that the burden always rests on those advocating taxation, as they are advocating a violation of individual rights. If they want to argue it's necessary, they have to prove that there is no other option (i.e., that it is necessary). But it seems like some of the participants in this conversation act as if Bill is the one who must prove that taxation isn't necessary. Even if they proved he was wrong, it doesn't make their own position the slightest bit better unless they get the default win.

So where does the burden rest? And why?” [Joe]

If taxes proved necessary to the sustenance of a proper Objectivist government then they would not constitute a violation of rights but a precondition for the establishment of rights.

The other side says that a proper Objectivist government would never go under-funded—that this simply could not happen. Their refusal to deal with the question of what if it did happen tells me their silent answer is: If the government wasn’t being supported adequately and was overrun and obliterated by criminal syndicates, let’s say—then so be it, but good lord lets’ not tax the people.

I submit the inconsistency and burden rests on those who advocate one government as the only way to protect rights and simultaneously express “so be it” at the prospect of its failure.

But these things are hard to prove. Each of us brings to these debates our own experience with humans and resulting notions of what is or is not plausible. Anarchos are famous for saying that when two or more rights-protection agencies (i.e., governments) have a conflict with each other, they will simply “work it out.” These will be businesses, they stress, and inter-agency war would be bad for business, and businessmen are and always will be rational. Therefore, they will peaceably work it out. Plausible? Provable? Disprovable?

No one in this debate will take up the challenge of proving that taxation is necessary, because that is not our contention. Our contention is that if it proved necessary, then it would be justified.

Bill’s suggestion for private agencies that protect rights subject to one government’s rules amounts to, because it will lead to, anarchism. As he pointed out, businesses operate more efficiently than government, so we can be assured that most voluntary funds will go to these agencies and not to the government. The government itself will become toothless. As John A. pointed out, “monopoly on the use of force” means just that, and it works only when it means just that. Under Bill’s scenario when the shit hits the fan and push comes to shove the government will most assuredly not be the final arbiter on the use of force; rather, the agency with the biggest and most guns will be the final arbiter. I might be dead before getting to see which one wins, so count me out of that plan; I’d rather pay taxes.


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Post 244

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:48pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, I find your comments here insulting and ignorant once again.  You keep talking about Rand saying it, in the margins, and without proof.  And you seem to like to say "facts be damned" and "fantasy world".  In other words, you trade in insults instead of arguments.  This isn't even the first time you've resorted to this tactic on this very thread! You insult people by claiming that they're not interested in facts, and they're merely blind followers of Rand.

Here's some news.  Disagreeing with Rand does not make you right.  It does not make you intelligent.  It does not make you better than anyone here.  It does not prove that you're an independent thinker.  And it absolutely does not prove that anyone else is a blind follower.

Frankly, I think your views of politics are completely wrong.  You routinely defend the use of violent force, including the initiation of force, whenever you find it convenient to your own ends.  You seem shocked that Rand would think that taxation was theft, even though it obviously involves coercing people and taking their money at the point of a gun.  Instead of understanding this trivially simple principle, you dismiss it as some kind of unproved theorem with nothing backing it up.

As I said before, I'm happy to hear arguments about why taxation must be necessary, and so isn't really a case of theft, despite how it looks.  But you're starting with the assumption that taxation is perfectly fine, and the burden of proof is on other people to show that it's unnecessary.  You've got it backwards.


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Post 245

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 11:03pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, you say "The other side says that a proper Objectivist government would never go under-funded—that this simply could not happen."

Am I to take it that your standard of a successful government is one that can never be under-funded?  If so, I see why you think taxation is necessary.  But why such an assumption?  Why not let it be under-funded?  Under-funded by what standard?  I'm imagining that if there was a government that was underfunded, the problems would manifest pretty quickly, and people would have a strong incentive to fund it better.  The only way to guarantee that you're always well funded is to tax much more than necessary or desired....just to be sure.

Is it still possible to be under-funded?  Sure.  If you start a little Objectivist island with 20 other people, and you're trying to defend yourself against the Chinese military, you're gonna be under-funded.  So what?

And whenever these kind of comparisons come up, it's important to ask how taxation does.  If a democratically elected government decides to tax a very small amount, can't they get overrun too?  How do you know how much is enough?  What makes you think that taxation somehow magically solves the problem? 

The only thing going for taxation is that you can tax far more than people think is necessary.  That's your benefit!?!?!?  That's the argument for taxation?

"No one in this debate will take up the challenge of proving that taxation is necessary, because that is not our contention. Our contention is that if it proved necessary, then it would be justified."

And yet, there are plenty of people advocating taxation, including you in this last post.  It seems you're not simply arguing for a hypothetical.  You are already convinced that taxation is necessary.  And yet, where's the proof?  I understand you don't want to take up the challenge, but then you shouldn't be leaping to the conclusion, should you?


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Post 246

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
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Neither Insults nor Incest

I have adduced plenty of facts such as the successful minarchist states of the Pre-income tax US and the Roman Republic which were the freest states ever to have existed. No one has addressed this other than Kurt who at least is interested in Roman history, and Jon who seems to realize that a working minarchist system is better than a suicidal voluntary pacifism by default.

Indeed, the period just before the Roman Empire shows the foolhardiness of private police forces, since that's essentially what Sulla's armies and the private armies of the landholders of non-Senatorial territories were. The result, as throughout history, was civil war. Likewise, the US Articles of Confederation left it up to each state to voluntarily support the Federal Government at a time when the spirit was for free trade and entirely against statism - but we got the Whiskey Rebellion and the like and New England was just about ready to go back under the crown.

I am the only one here who has tried to introduce some historical perspective - but I am met with silence and the mere assertion that Rand said taxation should ideally be voluntary. Well, yes, she did, in about three speculative paragraphs of her thousands of pages of writing. She also said such matters had to be worked out, and that they were for the future. (Show me wrong and quote her at length on the subject, and I will genuflect and kiss your ring!) If I can't compare that to Fermat saying he had a brilliant proof which he couldn't fit in the remaining space of the margin of his math book - a very apropos allusion so far as I can see, without it sounding insulting, then maybe people should show me where Rand did treat the matter at length or show me historical precedents for their ideal systems, and we can argue about those.

But no one else has produced such evidence of her writing, explained why she actively supported and voted for Nixon, Ford and Goldwater, or given any historical examples to counter mine.

As I have said repeatedly, I am not against moving toward minimal and voluntary systems, and would love to hear the details. What I hear a self-satisfied claim that "tax is theft" and no counter arguments, no historical precedents, no quotations of Rand saying anything more than it would be a nice thing and no admission that she herself thought such things were the last, and not the first step in the way forward. Yes, I paraphrased Homer Simspons' soliloquy on candy land, and published two symbolic images from the Tarot which might seem more insulting than they really are to those who don't know what they mean. My frustrated sarcasm is hardly name-calling and it does not change the essence of my arguments which are entirely within the Objectivist framework.

If the entirety of the debate here is whether Rand ever thought we should eventually move towards voluntary taxation so much as possible when the time is right, there is no debate. But the argument has been in favor of private police forces - an outright Libertarian heresy that I need not address, that all tax is theft (the stolen concept fallacy) and that support for taxation and the draft are the same thing (package deal).

I have not called names, insulted anyone's intelligence. My posts are emotionally biting but well qualified - if you read the qualifiers. I agree with the long term goals. But I see no counterevidence, no historical sophistication, and no counterarguments being used to refute my efforts. My rhetorical volume has increased, yes. It is almost as deafening as the silence of those who think that saying tax is theft is the end of the matter.

There certainly remains little more for me to say until there is a serious non-circular and substantive response to it. I have been quite eloquent and made plenty of reference to history above. I have long resisted the incestuous impulse to agree, to stay within the texts, and to ignore outside knowledge. From 1988 to 1997 I purposefully avoided contact with self-identified Objectivists and Objectivism, and kept my principles but researched support for them in outside sources. I have not insulted my opponents by saying that I think they are too stupid to counter my arguments. Indeed, I await to see just one of my examples be refuted on some solid source outside an offhand remark by Rand.

Ted Keer




(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/29, 12:29am)


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Post 247

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 12:35amSanction this postReply
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While I'm still open to thoughts on the topic, I lean towards Bill Dwyer's argument.  I think the enforcement of the law is not the critical component of government, and I'll try to make a few points on the topic.  But let me start with a link to an article of mine:

http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Rowlands/Government_Revisited_The_central_role.shtml

In it, I point out the the key problem of government is actually an epistemological problem.  How do you convince everyone that any particular use of force is appropriate.  I mention that a decision making process is required, and that is the basis of government.  Administering those decisions is secondary, and there's no reason to believe that a government agency needs to be the one that does it (or that it is more efficient at doing it).  If the decision is made by the government, does it matter who carries it out?  If it did, what is about calling some group of people "government" that makes them more trustworthy, efficient, or whatever it is that makes it better for them to carry it out?

I think this is the principle that Bill has been arguing:  While the decisions of the government need to be enforced, there's no need for any specific person or group to do the enforcing.  Someone should do, but anyone could.  If that's the case, then what's the problem with a bunch of private companies doing the job?  They're more likely to be efficient.  They're more likely to care about the results.  They have market incentives.  And they can be prosecuted themselves for any screwups.

Is this anarchy?  Absolutely not.  The use of force is still constrained by the government.  It is not competing government, making their own decisions of what's appropriate and inappropriate uses of force.  It's not gangs using violence to gain customers, or protecting their "customers" from other gangs.  They are just enforcing the decisions made by the government.

John said "When Rand said the government ought to have a monopoly on the use of retaliatory force she meant it." 

In the thread from my article I linked to above, I argued against that same point.  'Monopoly' has certainly caused plenty of confusion, and it drives people towards the anarchist camp by stating an absurdity.  What is wrong with the government outsourcing some of its work, as long as the use of force is constantly and rigorously constrained.  Why not allow private police?  Why not hire bounty hunters?  Why not allow private security firms?  There's no good reason.  And by claiming that all of this must be done by the government, it lumps in people who think these can be legitimate into the anarchist camp.

Let's just say there are three groups of people in this debate.

1.)  Those who believe in government, and are convinced that absolutely no functions that involve force can be allowed outside of government.
2.)  Those who believe in government, and think that some amount of the work may be out-sourced to private companies, although the use of force must always be approved by government.
3.)  Those who don't believe in government, and believe that private organizations should wield force however they see fit.

By asserting that government must perform all functions, you're lumping everyone in group 2 into the anarchist position, which is inaccurate.  And given the lack of an argument why no exercise of force can be performed by a private company, it seems arbitrary.  If you have that killer argument, please share!

I'd like to note that we could just say that all of the private organizations that enforce the law are part of the government.  The only difference at that point is that they are privately funded, instead of being paid through taxation.  Is that the problem?

Jon says "Under Bill’s scenario when the shit hits the fan and push comes to shove the government will most assuredly not be the final arbiter on the use of force; rather, the agency with the biggest and most guns will be the final arbiter."

Well, right now the agency with the biggest guns is the final arbiter?  What's the difference?

I don't ask this in jest.  I'm very serious.  I'm confused by the ideas here.  The most significant difference between a private and a government agency is that the government is funded through taxation.  If we're afraid of a private agency being in a position of dominant power, why is granting them the power of taxation suddenly make them fair and just?  Or is it calling them government that makes them fair and just?  Cause we can call the private agencies that if you think it'll help.

Normally, decentralizing the power is usually considered a good thing.  And yet here, we have the opposite premise.  It seems that all of the power must be centralized into a single group, funded by taxes.  I don't see it.

I think these arguments are way off.  And perhaps Bill will have more patience to deal with them.

Instead, let me make a few comments on 'problems' with privatizing the use of force (again, not the decision making...just the enforcement of it).

1.)  Some jobs may not be profitable.  John seems to be arguing along these lines in his post 235.  I don't see it as that big of a problem.  If nobody wants the retaliatory force to be used, what's the problem?
a.)  People want it, but they can't afford it.  So government is a welfare program.
b.)  John wants it, but doesn't want to pay for it himself.  Government is a welfare program.
c.)  The victims want it.  There's potential here.  But the scenarios are a little hard to imagine.  If some gang is taking your money, you'd think plenty of other people would want to stop them (out of fear of becoming victims themselves).  Generally, it's only a problem if the whole country is so short sighted and callous that nobody will help.  But then, what makes you think the government run by these very same people will help?

2.)  It's possible that one private group will gain too much power.  It might be a problem.  But if the government had all that power, why wouldn't they abuse it?  If there are reasons why they wouldn't, why don't those apply to the private agency?

But let's assume for a minute that it would be dangerous.  Okay.  Limit the power of any particular private group.  Limit the kinds of laws they can enforce.  Limit the size of their agency.  Okay.  Problem solved?

3.)  Some jobs are necessary, but a transaction model of payment wouldn't work.  Like the military.  Okay.  So run on donations.  If people don't contribute enough, the threat of external violence might convince them. Or let entrepreneurs figure something else out.

Look, there's absolutely no doubt that taxation is convenient.  It solves all the problems of funding something you really think is important, without the need for raising the money yourself or convincing others to pay.  But this is the same tendency that supporters of big government use.  How will we pay for this bridge?  Taxes!  How will we save the environment?  Taxes!  It is an easy answer.  But like all wishes for government to have extended powers, it's only attractive if you think you will be the one at the controls.

4.)  Some tasks may not be appropriate for private agencies.  For instance, John gave an example of evidence collecting.  Interestingly enough, this isn't an actual example of an agency wielding force.  It's actually an agency that's part of the decision making process.  So I'm open to the idea that this can't be out-sourced without corrupting the function of government.  Even then, I think it's possible to do privately.  Are there other examples of tasks that are possibly inappropriate?

Finally, let me point out that two kinds of arguments have been made against the privately funded agencies using force.  One is that it's absolutely not allowed, or it's the equivalent of anarchism.  This argument is that you absolutely cannot have a private group enforcing the decisions of the government.  I have yet to hear an argument for this, except for references to Rand's 'monopoly' statement, which isn't so much an argument as a reference.

The second kind of argument suggests that while it may be appropriate for having private agencies enforce government decisions, it's impractical under some conditions.  For instance, some tasks may not be profitable.  Or maybe some groups might get too powerful.  Or maybe some tasks really can't be done privately.  These are tougher to argue, since creative solutions are possible.  We have to be alert that any thought that it can't be done may just be a limit of our imaginations.


Post 248

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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A few notes -

Rand was not the first person to inform that 'taxation is theft' - Lysander Spooner, for instance, wrote much on the reason why this was so.....  Rand's statement takes on importance because she invoked it within the confines of principles - and that is the crux, and the bain it seems of many....  but if principles are not what one properly lives by, then the alternative is pragmatism, which is being unprincipled [however it might euphanistically be called otherwise]....  one simply cannot have it both ways.... and if living by principles is a 'pie-in-the-sky' idea from fairyland - then why are you calling yourselves Objectivists?

There is much confusion it seems over a couple of historic events - the Whiskey rebellion, and the Articles of Confederation....  much of this is because the perspectives involves have been generally written by those who 1]thought the rebellion was wrong and deserved to be stopped, and 2] the Articles were a failure and the Constitution was actually needed.......  but neither view is correct - it all depends on whether  you see conflicts as inherant to being without power to control, or whether reason to discuss differences can be done and resolutions can be achieved....  for all the dislike of some for Rothbard, his history of the beginnings of this country - Conceived in Liberty -  are worthy of note, and puts a different light on many preconceived ideas of what went on then, who was involved - and who stood to benefit from the conflicts, as opposed to who benefited from the resolutions of the conflicts.....  the whiskey rebellion, for one, was a very legitimate response to what many noted was one of the reason for fighting the War for Independence in the first place - and here then was another George imposing the very thing!

As for the claiming of early Roman days as providing legitimacy for power and control - the whole worldview then was radically different from those of the Enlightenment period - indeed, the notions of individualism and the Enlightenment view of man's relationship with State  was completely at arrears with who Romans saw things - conformity was the codified  rule of Romans ---------

[excerpt from my manuscript --- which while  focusing on art, has relevance to the wider  understanding of being a Roman]

The Roman himself basically was not interested in doing any of those endeavors - he considered himself to be a "man of letters", or rather he was raised to consider himself as such. His primary leisure, however, was spent in sports - gladiator spectatorings of military prowess, for instance, not the Arts.



Much of the reason for this state of affairs is the fact that, like ancient Egypt, the Romans live in an agonic social structure - the difference being, however, that, unlike the Egyptians, theirs was not an insular society, cut off by barren lands and sea, to keep them in isolation. Instead, there was a continuous need for a lengthy time of conquesting and governing the acquired territories, and keeping the outer fringed barbarians at bay.



While this allowed enough in the way of leisure time to become a person of letters, it did not make for the extended time needed for Romans to do sculpturing or painting - especially at the various outposts, even worse among the hustle and continued bustling associated among, say, the senators at Rome. Far better it was to be the essayist or historian or poet or [when in Rome] the orator, all utilizing the rhetorical skills taught while growing up.



Furthermore, there were the engineering feats to engage in, something also of major importance to the Romans. They then let the feats of architecture become as substitute for the Arts such as sculpturing. The public building became the arena for the expressions of aesthetics, their attempts in tribal glorifications.



Yet there was still a need for the personal. It is an inborn trait of being human, however much tribal influences dictate the public sphere. So, even tho the sculpturing and painting that was done was largely produced by imported artisans and artists, mostly from Greece, the fact that there was a lot of domestic dwelling aesthetics showed that there was a sense of the individual, and that to the Roman it was of importance - even as it was ignored socially. That was one of the reasons, perhaps, for the introduction of landscape renderings - and, to a lesser extent, the other background renderings, such as room extensions, whether whole rooms or alcoves wherein were painted vases of flowers or other artifacts desired to be remembered. Here, it would seem, Romans conceived themselves as being "in the world", firmly grounded in reality - for those backgrounds were of the world around them as they had seen, and as they, in the sense of landscapes, had remembered or wished them to be.


 

The real major problem with all of this was that the Roman, while seeing value in these endeavors of contemplation, did not see them as something which they, the Romans personally, could engage in doing - it would have been thought of as being very beneath them as a Roman. In an agonic society, the worth is resolved only within the public - the private, such as it was, was considered beneath any official consideration, for it detracted from being the public person. That, too, was why the works were done by imported artisans and artists, for these same artisans and artists were considered as slaves and thus "lesser beings". Moreover, as it was with the Greeks in their earlier history, there was also a disparing view of those who sought to do the Arts "for a living", as a commercial venture - the concept of the trading syndrome did not sit very well if at all in the consciousness of the Romans and their taking syndrome mentality.



The consequence of this was an inevitability - a loss of incentive for creativity in the Arts, one of the Trading Syndrome virtues. While it could have been said that because of the vastness of the empire, there was great potential in the endeavorings, by the same token, because of the agonicness of the social structure, there was then



perceived little desire for actualizing that potential - it simply would not have been rewarded.



Contemplativeness, however, is still a necessity of being human. If there is little if any real social approval of it in regards to the world around them, then it will of consequence be turned to contemplations of other realms, whether real or not, whether appropriate to human qua human growth or not. In other words, it opened the way for the infiltration of Christianity, the most profoundly anti-human aesthetic perversion of the agonic taking/tribalist syndrome to appear - even as it was postured as being a doctrine of love and hope in a disparing world. The consequence of that, which lasted for hundreds of years - to nearly a millenia - was that era which gave identity to the true nature of the religion, the Dark Ages.

 

 


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Post 249

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:06pmSanction this postReply
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We have a real world example of a government today which farms out all enforcement, with no army or any other lever of force of its own. And every single time push comes to shove we see that it is the final of arbiter of nothing, while those who contribute the means of enforcement turn out to be the actual final arbiter. Can anyone name it?

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Post 250

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
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Joseph:

I can't belive I'm saying this.  But, is there an ethical argument for "taxation?"  

Better yet, is there an ethical argument for an ethical form or amount or means of taxation. Separate discussion, shouldn't be conflated with the first.  In fact, can't be debated until the first is agreed to.  If the first is true, then it is only true for an ethical form or amount or means.  An ethical argument for taxation should not be an argument in support of an unethical form or amount or means of taxation. If the first is not true, then the second is moot.  But, first things first.

In a hypothetical hermit's existence in proximity to a simple 'village' , one could argue that the hermit has arranged his life as to be receiving neither harm, nor benefit from the collective effort of the village.   Yet, where in America is that hypothetical a possibility, in the following sense?    What is the benefit one receives over the course of a lifetime from the collective decision of the WII Generation to have thrown 400,000 of themselves into a meatgrinder to defeat the vision of Hitler's Germania?   This, in addition to the actual cost in dollars spent.

I say, it is nearly incalculable.  It defies calculation.   And yet, those benefits have accrued to us, simply by showing up.   I say, we have a moral and ethical obligation to bear the cost of the benefits we have already received, simply by showing up here.

We really can't arrange our lives in America to not benefit from the collective actions of Americans.  It's not possible.   So, as I see it, we only have three ethical choices when we disagree with the actions of collective America and the required funding thereof:

1] Work politically to change the direction(s) of collective America.
2] Concede the issue(s) to collective America, learn to live with the compromise(s).
3] Move elsewhere, and withdraw both your support and benefit from collective America, when the cumulative weight of 1] and 2] is unbearable.

..and realize, when it comes to 1] and 2], life is not about a single issue.   But, until we are so moved by the totality of issues that 3] is our choice, we can't help but receive benefit from our existence in a circumstance that was in fact and continues to be realized through a collective effort, imperfect as it may be, in fact, imperfect as it is guaranteed to be, and so, IMO, we have a moral and ethical obligation to pay for our form of self government and the benefits--including the incalculable benefits -- we receive from it, until we bug out of the Village and the cozy environs therein.   

There is a 4th option, not really a choice, and so it has nothing to do with ethics:

4] Go nuts.

A nitpicking detail: Rands "Atlantis" was just a little flawed.   It existed on land in a context paid for not only by Mulligan, but by the lives and blood of 400,000 Americans who threw themselves into a meatgrinder to create the Free World wearing G.I. green and Navy grey and AF blue paid for by collective America.    A cleaner romantic novel model would have been an island like one of the Caymans, by itself, factually defending itself from Cuba(which hangs over it like a scyth over a grape)and all comers.  

regards,
Fred


Post 251

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:21pmSanction this postReply
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Jon:

Does it have a fig leaf on its emblem masked as an olive branch?

regards,
Fred


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Post 252

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
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Rand's Akrasia; Goldwater, Nixon, Ford

Thanks, Robert, for being the first person who apparently argues against my position, to actually refer to the historical matters adduced.

As for the problem with the Articles of Confederation, my main point was not whether the Whiskey Rebellion was proper or not, but that if each state, and indeed each district or county were free to take the law into its own hands, free trade and the market system would break down and the benefits of national citizenship would become null and void, since one could not travel freely, one could not be guaranteed that one's rights as a Virginian would be respected in Pennsylvania, and once the states started to disagree about the laws, the federal government would have no jurisdiction to step in and arbitrate the dispute. Likewise, under the Articles of Confederation, each state was to voluntarily pay its portion of the federal budget, and was to send troops when it saw fit to do so, with no compulsion from the central authority. Had the articles been in place at the time of the War of 1812, would the southern states have come to the aid of New England? Britain would certainly have picked of states in the north one-by-one, and Britain, Spain, or France would have taken the south soon after.

As for the Roman Republic, you speak of psychology in a text written for a different subject. I'll simply comment that nothing inherent in the form of the early republic required it to continue to make foreign conquests. After Italy was united, the Republic could have stayed free and stable except for the aggressions of Carthage which wanted to maintain a monopoly of sea trade. It was not Roman aggression but Carthaginian belligerence which led to the Roman freeholders inventing themselves as a naval power and asserting their rights against Carthaginian aggression.

=====

I still await documentation of where Rand explained at length and in detail how a fully voluntary system of government revenue would work. I await an explanation of how she could have supported Goldwater, Nixon, and Ford, (Do I hear a cricket chirping?) but have been so hostile to the Libertarians. I myself have said repeatedly that I do not oppose a system of voluntary government support - just that I think it is not the first but the last step in a reform of our society - a view in which I am in total agreement with Rand. Joe has developed a trichotomy of ways to view running the government, presuming that some of us would see those in his second category as anarchists, while I myself would see myself in that second category. And Bill has retreated to yet another thread to make his arguments. If I had the time, I suppose I could cut and paste all my as of yet unanswered posts above to the new thread, but I don't see why my arguments can't be answered here in the full context of what has already been said.

So I'll repeat my positions:

(1) Rand saw voluntary support for the government as an ideal for the future, not the first, but the last step in reforming society. I agree

(2) Rand never detailed any arguments about how to achieve this end, she devoted at most a few paragraphs to the matter. Prove me wrong - I am always quite happy to read new things by Rand.

(3) No one here has shown any real world examples of successful voluntarists states that protected peoples' rights, but there are example of minarchists states that have done so. That being the case, what is wrong with pursuing minarchism with the ultimate goal of voluntarism - once someone has shown a workable plan?

I hold that arguments need to be based on reasoning and evidence, not just what amount to floating abstractions based on parts of Rand's system taken out of context. She criticized Libertarians for doing just this. And if I can be called unprincipled because I believe in the workability of a minarchist state that protects its citizens according to objective law under the least possible tax burden, (and have no opposition to a voluntarists system if it proves workable) then I think I'm justified in calling people who apparently would prefer tax free anarchy over the actual protection of people's rights under systems which have been shown to work misguided idealists who would accept a fantasy of perfection which until now has never existed while apparently rejecting the best system of Government that mankind has ever yet achieved as simply not good enough.

If the voluntarists will accept minarchism as a stage on the possible road to voluntarism, then I think the argument is settled. If not, then I fear their zeal for the perfect is a stumbling block in the pursuit of the good. If that mild rebuke sounds insulting, consider me rude, for all it's worth.

Ted Keer

Post 253

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:29pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, I already did, here. You can sanction the post assuming I have you right.

Post 254

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 2:38pmSanction this postReply
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Jon:

The UN is the 'civilized' world's official instrument of doing everything possible short of actually doing anything.  It is like a cardboard cutout that stands in for civilization.

The forces that it borrows and miscommands are empowered by their own screwy 'thrid way' mandate only to defend themselves.

Logic cries out that mission is best done in the parking lot at East 44th Street, not rudely half way around the world in front of desperate folks in need of defense.

regards,
Fred


Post 255

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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I meant to add that the source for the Roman view was William McNeill's Rise of the West book...

Post 256

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 5:44pmSanction this postReply
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I have taken the liberty of starting a thread devoted explicitly to the morality of taxation - "Taxation (to protect rights) is a contradiction in terms" (General Forum). I encourage anyone who is interested in continuing a discussion of this topic to do so there.

- Bill

Post 257

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 7:04pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:

Had the articles been in place at the time of the War of 1812, would the southern states have come to the aid of New England?

You have this a little backwards.  In fact, during the War of 1812, both Conn. and Mass refused the order to federalize their militia , in violation of the Constitution.

Hartford Convention

Dec. 15, 1814–Jan. 4, 1815, meeting to consider the problems of New England in the War of 1812; held at Hartford, Conn. Prior to the war, New England Federalists (see Federalist party) had opposed the Embargo Act of 1807 and other government measures; many of them continued to oppose the government after fighting had begun. Although manufacturing (fostered by isolation) and contraband trade brought wealth to the section, “Mr. Madison's War” (as the Federalists called the War of 1812) and its expenses became steadily more repugnant to the New Englanders. The Federalist leaders encouraged disaffection. The New England states refused to surrender their militia to national service (see Griswold, Roger), especially when New England was threatened with invasion in 1814. The Federal loan of 1814 got almost no support in New England, despite prosperity there. Federalist extremists, such as John Lowell and Timothy Pickering, contemplated a separate peace between New England and Great Britain. Finally, in Oct., 1814, the Massachusetts legislature issued a call to the other New England states for a conference. Representatives were sent by the state legislatures of Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island; other delegates from New Hampshire and Vermont were popularly chosen by the Federalists. The meetings were held in secret. George Cabot, the head of the Massachusetts delegation and a moderate Federalist, presided. Other important delegates were Harrison Gray Otis (1765–1848), also a moderate, and Theodore Dwight, who served as secretary of the convention. The moderates prevailed in the convention. The proposal to secede from the Union was discussed and rejected, the grievances of New England were reviewed, and such matters as the use of the militia were thrashed out. The final report (Jan. 5, 1815) arraigned Madison's administration and the war and proposed several constitutional amendments that would redress what the New Englanders considered the unfair advantage given the South under the Constitution. The news of the Treaty of Ghent ending the war and of Andrew Jackson's victory at New Orleans made any recommendation of the convention a dead letter. Its importance, however, was twofold: It continued the view of states' rights as the refuge of sectional groups, and it sealed the destruction of the Federalist party, which never regained its lost prestige.


(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 8/29, 8:11pm)


Post 258

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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I'll take your assertion of faith, I can't read the font - but does the principle change?

Post 259

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:

Absolutely not.  It illustrates the nature of legislation sans enforcement.  Aka, "Wishes on Paper."

You can also find mention of this failure to federalize in the footnotes of de Tocqueville's Democracy in America.

regards,
Fred

(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 8/29, 8:13pm)

(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 8/29, 8:15pm)


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