RoR: Forum

Ed: "Your aim was to show how you were so good that you could handle opposition in a state of drowsiness -- and that a battle would be so trivial as to bore you. In your self-imposed stupor, you defeated yourself (you put your own neck in the noose) and I merely pulled the lever that sealed your fate and ended, once-and-for-all, any backing that you might've had for your boorish pretentiousness and self-stupifying hubris."

Ed,
I wonder, about your parenthesis after your name, Giant Killer. There was an artist I met who did a painting of a naked dwarf on stilts in a room. Very, very well painted it was called something like he spits in the shoulders of giants......and I wonder about the psyche of the maker of that painting.
Jon understands half of it, he is partially joking as well, but maybe running would be wise advice. How deep can you go? How close does your work match your stated beliefs? Do you use ideas to win at life or win online?
Michael

Post 61

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 10:28am

~ Never wrestle with pigs - you both get dirty ... and the pig likes it ~
Sus is the nature of wrestling ...

Post 62

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 10:57am

Hong: "An artist always over-analyzing!"

M: That is always what non-introspective people say!

Who has all those time to introspect all day?! I wouldn't be able to to get anything done if I indeed do that. I'll respectfully leave introspections to artists...and poets... :-)

Post 63

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 11:34am

Vera wrote: "~ Never wrestle with pigs - you both get dirty ... and the pig likes it ~
Sus is the nature of wrestling ..."

hahahahah, I think mud wrestling would be a lot of fun! Who's game? Vera? But I would like to do that somewhere in the south, very warm day, outside, by a swimming hole, picnic going on with friends...ok, and what does the winner win?

Switching gears. Hong wrote: "I'll respectfully leave introspections to artists...and poets... :-)"

Yeah! But I do think it is much wiser to get under your skin first before someone else, you don't want to be the last to know whats going on in there!

Michael

Post 64

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 12:02pm

But I do think it is much wiser to get under your skin first before someone else, you don't want to be the last to know whats going on in there!

Of course. I'd do that quickly, get it over with, and forget about it!

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 1/18, 12:03pm)

Post 65

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 2:46pm

nah - thanx - I've done my time in the jungle - and I don't need Sustenance for the (mud) ride - I'm a vegetarian ... as for the winner: that depends if it's the pig - if not, I'd suggest a nice wet towel ...

Post 66

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 8:02pm

Michael,

Do you use ideas to win at life or win online?

Both. I enjoy challenges, often get in over my head, and often come out of it completely unscathed -- no emotional scars, no sunken esteem, just another interesting test of my limits.

Note that this is kind of like a 2-year old who, no matter how many times they fall off the tricycle -- they get back on without a flinch. They don't care if older kids ride trikes right by them -- they are so interested in what it is that they can learn to do with their abilities, their behavior embodies the curiosity: "what am I capable of?" In short then, I'm just like a 2-year old.

:-)

Jon understands half of it ... maybe running would be wise advice.

[cloud of dust]

;-)

Ed

Post 67

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 8:10pm

"[cloud of dust]

;-)"

Ahh, a wise man who lives to fight another day.

Post 68

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 9:38pm

Ed! Do you know the paintings of Paul Klee? He thought the ideal state was of innocence before we started to learn, and his paintings look like that, something like what a 4/5 year might make...ohhhh...I think it is wise to leave a cloud of dust.

But I have got to ask: why would you think a 2-year old's state of being, in any capacity, is good for an adult?

Michael

Post 69

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 11:55pm

Mike,

Ahh, a wise man who lives to fight another day.

You got that right, brother!

Michael!!!

Do you know the paintings of Paul Klee? He thought the ideal state was of innocence before we started to learn ...

I am unaware of such a man. However, I am not unaware of the "early innocence" thing -- after all, that was Rousseau's theme of being born free, but then everywhere in chains. I do not agree with Rousseau, and by extension with P. Klee. "Ideal state" has got to be contextual (to change as the acting agent matures). If you read my profile, then you will find that I am fascinated with/by "child-like" curiousity & joy. Martin Seligman ("Learned Optimism") also comments on how young kids have a level of optimism rarely held by older (post-pubescent) folks.

That said, my explanation of the resilience of younglings' spirits -- often in the face of treacherous circumstance -- is the "ignorance-is-bliss" theme (kids don't know that there were any options, and that childhood could've be so much better than what they had had). However, adults could learn to be more like kids, and indulge more, as long as they stay rational. Adults often fall into depression or states of anxiety -- without "really" good reasons. In short, I believe that adults can increase the span of their vitality, by recognizing that curiosity can really keep you going in life. It can keep you younger for longer -- and that's neat.

The day you quit learning -- is the day you join the walking dead. Here's Rand on the subject ...

In order to actually be alive properly, a man must use his mind constantly and productively. � Man cannot survive automatically. The day he decides he no longer needs to be creative is the day he�s dead spiritually. But truly productive men rarely do this; they continue working and die at their desks. � p30 Ayn Rand Answers: The Best of Her Q & A

Post 70

Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 3:42am

Hi Ed,

"Adults often fall into depression or states of anxiety -- without "really" good reasons. In short, I believe that adults can increase the span of their vitality, by recognizing that curiosity can really keep you going in life."

I emphatically disagree with that as well you equating curiosity with creativity. For one I think depression is a great tool! It lets you know that not everything is ok...but what isn�t ok and how to solve/fix it is no cake walk and the ""really" good reasons" are there but one might not want to see the answers; or do the psychological, physical, and reality based work to create a flourishing existence.

Hahahaha....a curious mind is like a saturated sponge. It can�t hold any more and simply passes its contents.

Michael

Post 71

Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 11:07am

Newberry,

============
I emphatically disagree with that as well you equating curiosity with creativity.
============

To psychologize you for a moment, that's just because you'd like to think that you know all that you need to know (ie. that you have "arrived"). I had a friend once who said, by age 17, that he had learned all that he needed to in order to live out his life. Spiritually, he never made it into adulthood. He never really grew.

And, for me, creativity is a "curiosity" with generativity -- a "what-creations-am-I-capable-of" dynamic.

============
I think depression is a great tool! It lets you know that not everything is ok ...
============

Okay. You've found a "use" for depressed feelings, but would you dare to say that clinical (6+ months) depression is a great tool? What about a lifetime of depression? Huh? The feeling of depression is only good as a transient phenomenon, hopefully springing one into action (which is, itself hindered, by the depression). To put words in Rand's mouth, she would say that depression is metaphysically unimportant.

============
... but one might not want to see the answers; or do the psychological, physical, and reality based work to create a flourishing existence.
============

Right!

============
Hahahaha....a curious mind is like a saturated sponge. It can�t hold any more and simply passes its contents.
============

Wrong! Leaving aside those who've given up on thinking in life, I've yet to see a mind that has been filled to full capacity (ie. one that "can't" learn anymore). In fact, I take offense at your very suggestion of an inherent, rational limitation in man. This reminds me of pomo wankers or fundamento-religionists scoffing at scientific or philosophic advances -- saying that they have a "higher" truth or understanding (either that no one knows anything, or that seeking truth is futile -- because "real" truth is "revealed" to the humble & discreet among us).

Ed

Post 72

Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 12:39pm

Ed,

Michael said:

"Hahahaha....a curious mind is like a saturated sponge. It can�t hold any more and simply passes its contents."

I think Michael is saying CURIOSITY is used as an excuse for a lack of discipline and a focused mind. The last 10% of any worthy challenge takes 90% of the work. Curiosity will get you started on a project but will not necessarily carry you through to the end. Your goals and sense of purpose do that.

Just my take, fwiw.

Mike E.

Post 73

Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 12:56pm

Good points, Mike E..

Michael N., is that what you meant?

Ed

Post 74

Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 1:18pm

Ed: "To psychologize you for a moment, that's just because you'd like to think that you know all that you need to know (ie. that you have "arrived")."

Hahahaha, if you said that to my face you would see a bemused startled look as if I were seeing a two-year seriously burping!

Above you quote Rand on productivity to support your view that a child-like curiosity leads to a good life. I didn't see how your concept and her's met up. And I took you to mean curiosity as a guiding principle. So perhaps now we are in agreement that curiosity as an end in itself is a total waste of time?

Now you are back tracking and combining it with generativity (productivity).

"Okay. You've found a "use" for depressed feelings, but would you dare to say that clinical (6+ months) depression is a great tool? What about a lifetime of depression? Huh? The feeling of depression is only good as a transient phenomenon, hopefully springing one into action (which is, itself hindered, by the depression). To put words in Rand's mouth, she would say that depression is metaphysically unimportant."

I daresay you are putting words into her mouth. Doesn�t change that depression is a symptom of a fucked up part or whole life. Its sending a message that one is not happy and its time, perhaps, long over due to get one�s shit together. Or perhaps instead of doing passionate creative work, eating well, and enjoying friends and times one should stuff themselves with drugs like Prozac? Living the rest of their life feeling that adult life is no fun?

"In fact, I take offense at your very suggestion of an inherent, rational limitation in man."

Hahahah, let me run to get you a bib.

Sorry, I can�t help but have fun with you. You mean you haven�t met people who are terribly, terribly fascinated/curious with facts and figures, and question everything to glean more and more of "knowledge" and then when it is their turn to speak they turn on the facet and let waves of irrelevant information escape their mouths without conceptual filter as to how that info is useful to anyone?

Michael

(Edited by Newberry on 1/19, 1:33pm)

Post 75

Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 1:31pm

Mike!

You're (notice the spelling) way too correct!

Michael

Post 76

Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 12:21am

Newberry,

=================
So perhaps now we are in agreement that curiosity as an end in itself is a total waste of time?
=================

Of course. A meaningless curiosity -- where facts are never integrated, but merely incessantly acquired -- is absurd. There was a movie (I forget the title) where an AI robot -- "Johnny 5" -- repeated: "Need more input!" This is not what I mean, when I speak of human curiosity.

=================
Now you are back tracking and combining it [curiosity] with generativity (productivity).
=================

Back tracking, shmack tracking. For beings inherently productive (ie. human beings), curiosity/creativity IS productivity. It (all) starts with the mind -- and finishes with the hands (ie. with producing a value). This is what I've learned -- by first being curious.

=================
You mean you haven�t met people who are terribly, terribly fascinated/curious with facts and figures, and question everything to glean more and more of "knowledge" and then when it is their turn to speak they turn on the facet and let waves of irrelevant information escape their mouths without conceptual filter as to how that info is useful to anyone?
=================

Of course I've met those types, Michael (I've walked this planet -- with my eyes open -- for nearly 4 decades). The universities are chock-full of those types of useful idiots. But I ain't that type, brother. Period. To paraphrase Branden (and to continue with the psychologization of yourself), you're "reacting against" that cognitive schematism that you've built up via past, nonbeneficial interactions with fact-sponge, idiot others. Rule #1 = don't take me for an idiot, I'm very thoughtful. Rule #2 = judge me by MY words & actions, not those of past others around you. Rule #3 = don't forget about Rules 1 & 2.

Imagine a world without curiosity, Newberry. What would it look like, huh? Pretty dismal, to be sure. Curiosity can (when wise) become curiosity over what it is that is best for one's life. And that can't ever be a bad thing. Curiosity is that open doorway whereby an individual my advance in their life (if it lures them into thinking).

Curiosity is cool.

Ed

Post 77

Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 4:31am

those types of useful idiots

Useful - really?

Post 78

Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 8:38am

Ed,

Your mantra to curiosity is noted.

You wrote: "For beings inherently productive (ie. human beings), curiosity/creativity IS productivity." Followed up with this:

"Rule #2 = judge me by MY words & actions, not those of past others around you."

Humans are not inherently productive. ahahahahah, if they were we would not need a philosophy at all.

You know, Ed, how this all reads to me? That you hope curiosity leads to creativity.

Michael

Post 79

Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 9:40am