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Post 60

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:05amSanction this postReply
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Chris,

To expand on that just a bit: You need to examine your emotions to understand the root of them. What are the value judgements that lie at the root? If you don't, if you assume that they are what they are, then you are in trouble. This is exactly what Rand was talking about in Philosophy: Who Needs It. Emotions aren't mystical, they don't happen for no reason, and they aren't beyond your ability to control and change.

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 8/07, 11:07am)


Post 61

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

I agree that emotions have reasons or causes. However, I don't think Rand gives people good tools to deal with them or she necessarily understands their causes. If you don't have good tools, then you are unable to control them. To control and understand emotions, you need the right tools.


Post 62

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:17amSanction this postReply
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The only tool you need is your brain :-)

Many people have a lot of trouble looking at themselves with honesty. Honestly evaluating yourself is the key to a lot of this. This goes hand-in-hand with self-esteem of course.

What do you consider a tool for this? Can you give me an example so I can understand what you're trying to say?

Thanks,

Ethan


Post 63

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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Those poor emotions all they are trying to do is to inform us of something, and, they are never wrong. All we need to do is to have the courage to listen to them and  learn form them.
CD


Post 64

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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Ciro,

I'll assume you are joking. Let me know if you're not so I can refute your statement :-)


Post 65

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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To control and understand emotions, you need the right tools.


The right tools are to have the courage to try, and the worse thing that can happen to you is that you will have to retry again!




Post 66

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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I am damn serious, emotions are never wrong, the thinking is!

Post 67

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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The only tool you need is your brain
Ethan,

This is rampant over-simplification. This is my main problem with much of the self-help that is out there. It's like saying: "You only need your eyes to be able to see Pluto."

Maybe technique is a better word in this case. I have learned many such techniques from neuro-linguistic programming. They are techniques on collapsing anchors, reframing them as well. I can recommend books if you are interested.

Chris


Post 68

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:30amSanction this postReply
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Ciro,

I see what you're saying.

Ethan


Post 69

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:31amSanction this postReply
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Chris,

Speaking from experience, it took years to "re-program" many emotional responses. Technique wise it involved lots of introspection. Lots. Lots and lots. :-)

Ethan


Post 70

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 11:39amSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

That's good for you. Not everyone finds the right technique for them. Like anything else, these techniques have to be learned. Sometimes these techniques are discovered by accident.

Many people (myself included) probably spend too much in introspection.

Chris


Post 71

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 12:12pmSanction this postReply
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Didn't Branden remark on emotions as an article or two in the Objectivist Newsletters? a prelude to what he wrote in his Psychology of Self-Esteem? [which was largely compiled from his Objectivist articles]....

[myself can't  at the moment say, since my stuff is all packed in anticipation - still waiting - of moving to new apartment]

(Edited by robert malcom on 8/07, 12:13pm)


Post 72

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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Well, I have read all those essays in the newsletters. I didn't get much out of them.

Chris


Post 73

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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Ciro -- Molto grazie!

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Post 74

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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I didn't think this speech was brilliant like some of the other people on this thread.  I'm actually really puzzled what they thought was brilliant?!?

The first two sections were about evil ideas or the immediacy of consequences.  Not exactly new ideas.  The point for both sections seems to be just because it's obvious to us, doesn't mean it's obvious to someone else.  Fair enough, but so?  I've seen some people do this on occasion, but I don't think it's that common.  Most people realize quickly that it's not obvious to others.  While it leads into a more interesting discussion of evasion, I don't think those examples are representative of any significant number of people.

Now how about evasion?  It's easy to get angry when someone announces they think the energy industry should be nationalized.  Obviously it's a horrible idea.  But they probably don't know it.  So maybe you're angry that their unthinking acceptance of societal beliefs will lead to disaster or injustice.  But it rarely stops there.  When you try to show them why it's bad, they generally aren't interested.  They have their beliefs, and claim a right to believe whatever they want, and they don't want to talk about it.  Is that evasion?  You might argue that it's not, as they're not avoiding knowledge...they just don't care.  Now, are you justified in feeling moral outrage?  I think so.

The speech goes in a different direction though.  It discussed the difficulty of knowing if someone is evading.  She says,  "Thus, we must recognize that we cannot look into another human mind. "  She offers very difficult introspective examples, suggesting that if we can't know ourselves that well, how can we know other people that well?  But is she really arguing about very difficult and slight cases of evasion?  Is this where moral outrage comes from?  She's almost entirely ruled out moral outrage with an almost-skepticism.  We can still judge the likes of Hitler, but pretty much all of our day to day judgments have to be thrown out because psychology hasn't progressed as a science enough.

The last section on psychological causes of rage was also lacking.  She blames it on insecurity and group-think.  Those are convenient ways to slander moral outrage, but are they a good explanation of real life situations?  If she doesn't think we know enough about psychology to tell if someone is evading, how can she rely on this same flawed psychology to look for hidden/repressed motivations?  Which is easier to detect?  How would we possibly know whether this was a common trait or an exceedingly rare trait amongst those who show moral outrage?  While she may feel that people who express moral outrage are all neurotic cultists, that tells us more about what she thinks than about what they are thinking.  It may be treated as an interesting aside, but I didn't read it that way.  I read it as her describing a major phenomena.  And since she can't possibly know that, it comes off as slander.

Another problem with these psychological theories is that it doesn't particularly explain why Objectivist rage is more common than regular people's rage, unless she'd like to make a statement about how neurotics are attracted to Objectivism or how Objectivism creates neurotics.  I find these theories far less useful than her second topic about the immediacy of ideas.  It's because Objectivists have a clearer idea of the consequences of ideas that they're more prone to anger.

So maybe those who thought is was a wonderful speech can offer some reasons for that evaluation.  Did I skip over the really important part?


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Post 75

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 9:06pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,
Did I skip over the really important part?

Actually, in all due respect, you did.

Barbara was not talking about ALL rage or ALL moral judgments by Objectivists, merely the destructive exaggerated ones that are abundantly seen and have plagued the Objectivist movement since the beginning, resulting in the different well-documented schisms. Yet you treat Barbara's arguments as if she were all-inclusive. I have read other people making the same mistake.

Do you need quotes?

Michael


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Post 76

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 9:15pmSanction this postReply
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Let me add a few more thoughts about why Objectivists might feel rage.

One is that you see clearly the truth, and you know your opponents are muddled and confused, and yet you are alone and looked down on by others.  You're considered immoral, evil, or maybe just immature and gullible, from people who make it a policy not to think about things like this too much or too clearly.  This grave injustice in the world is enough to make anyone angry if they dwell on it too much.  It's not at all surprising that Objectivists feel anger easily, whether at a particular person, or at the world in general.

There are plenty of other reasons, like how irrationality (like faith) is promoted as a virtue, and how smug people are that they're sacrificing their mind for no point.  They even feel superior to those who don't.  When moral standards are so entirely reversed, it's easy to get angry.

Or how about how people can preach vicious ideas that would lead to horrible consequences if put into practice, and these same people are not interested enough to learn whether they're right or wrong.  The world seems to think you can commit any kind of crime as long as you don't think about it.  You're not evil if you kill lots of people without thinking about it much.  Actually, Barbara says in her article: "I wish only to deprive you of specifically moral outrage when it is unjustly directed at your opponents. Be fiercely angry because you know the deadly consequences when certain ideas are translated into action. But recognize, recognize clearly, that it is likely that many of your opponents do not grasp those consequences—and that, if they did, they would change their convictions."  For some reason, the moral outrage is only reserved for those who if they understood things clearly, they'd still do it.  If people don't grasp the consequences, I guess we can't be angry with them?  Weird.

Is any of this common to Objectivists?  I think environmentalists feel the same kind of moral outrage.  They think they're in the minority.  They think the world is too apathetic to look into the facts.  They think they're looked down upon by ignorant people.

There's no need to suggest theories like group-think or neurosis to explain the anger.  If there was no anger, I think it would be damn hard to explain the absence!

There might be one thing that needs to be explained, though, and it wasn't in this speech.  The question is why do Objectivists feel such rage towards other Objectivists?

Theories?

1.)  They should know better.  They understand so much, and have been exposed to the ideas, so they must be corrupt.
2.)  Egos.  They don't recognize him as the Objectivist leader he aims to be.
3.)  Money.  Too much competition for funding.
4.)  Control.  To be the authoritative source for Objectivism means discrediting others and then pretending they don't exist.
5.)  Personal squabbles.  There are a lot of unpleasant people.
6.)  Rejections of social skills.  People believe that to be nice or pleasant is living for others, and only a complete rejection of social skills/principles is morally acceptable.
7.)  Everyone thinks they know everything.  Obviously disagreements turn ugly.

I'm sure that only scratches the surface.


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Post 77

Monday, August 7, 2006 - 9:29pmSanction this postReply
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MSK, you haven't even hinted at what that "important part" was that I missed.  And then you went on to suggest I treated her arguments as all-inclusive, which is a meaningless statement as far as I can tell.  I did nothing like that.

You also say that she focused on the ones that caused the schisms, but I find that even less likely as her two most plausible points (the first two) are more directed at non-Objectivists than at Objectivists.

Obviously schisms are a problem (although some are justified), and some of the anger and behavior is irrational.  But she seems to promote skepticism to avoid moral judgment, and then implies that those people who feel moral outrage are psychologically sick.  She started with the intention of trying to discredit moral outrage (as she had intended to write an article for SOLO years ago).  Back then she had intended to say why moral outrage was wrong.  Instead, she's just moved to the view that we must never do it for fear of being wrong, and that those who do it are sick in the head.  Maybe it's a fall back since wasn't able to attack moral outrage directly.

So yes...please do elaborate on what the brilliant point that I missed was.



Post 78

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 1:32amSanction this postReply
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Joe, please consider this not so small bit of brilliance that I unearthed from Barbara Branden's paper.

In the fourth section, "Some Psychological Causes of Objectivist Rage"  BB identifies three psychological types, among the proponents of Objectivism; namely, the true believers, the free thinkers, and the bullies.

Another Barbara, Coloroso is her surname, has written extensively on conflict resolution, among and with children. One of her recent books describes three similar psychological types, that are comparable to those that BB has identified. The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander.

It is well accepted and described by psychotherapists that, the roots of anger erupt from seeds planted in early childhood..  David Kantor, My Lover, Myself.   

My uncertainty permits me to perform a synthesis of Coloroso's  and BB's Bullies;  BB's free-thinkers as Coloroso's Bullied; and finally, the anonymous, less than ideal, Bystanders, aka BB's true believers.

I am not certain of this yet; but I'm thinking about it. It follows too, that; as soon as Objectivists discover the roots of their childhood anger and learn to forgive those who planted the first seeds, the raging bullying will begin to subside. 

The other issue is; how Objectivist bullies are enabled by true-believers. For planting the seeds of this brilliant theory in my uncertain mind, I too would have given Barbara Branden a standing ovation. Of that, I'm certain.

Just psychologizing of course, but I prefer it now, to raging. 

Sharon

Thanks for keeping me out of  "Le Salon de Refusee"

Post 79

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 1:41amSanction this postReply
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Joe, please consider this not so small bit of brilliance that I unearthed from Barbara Branden's paper.

In the fourth section BB speaks of  "Some Psychological Causes of Objectivist Rage"

Three psychological types are identified among the proponents of Objectivism, namely the true believers, the free thinkers, and the bullies.

Another Barbara, Coloroso is her surname, has written extensively on conflict resolution, among and with children. One of her recent books describes three similar psychological types, that are comparable to those that BB has identified. The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander.

It is well accepted and described by psychotherapists that, the roots of anger erupt from seeds planted in early childhood..  David Kantor, My Lover, Myself.   

My uncertainty permits me to perform a synthesis of Coloroso's  and BB's Bullies;  BB's free-thinkers as Coloroso's Bullied; and finally, the anonymous, less than ideal, Bystanders, aka BB's true believers.

I am not certain of this yet; but I'm thinking about it. It follows too, that; as soon as Objectivists discover the roots of their childhood anger and learn to forgive those who planted the first seeds, the raging bullying will begin to subside. 

The other issue is; how Objectivist bullies are enabled by true-believers. For planting the seeds of this brilliant theory in my uncertain mind, I too would have given Barbara Branden a standing ovation. Of that, I'm certain.

Just psychologizing of course, but I prefer it now, to raging. 

Sharon

Thanks for keeping me out of  "Le Salon de Refusee"

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