RoR: Forum

The controversial part of the story may be that I don't think that the woman should be punished by the city/county/state/fed.

Post 1

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 2:40pm

Please tell me that you are kidding...

Post 2

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 5:25pm

Why, Dean?

Don't let that one lie there. Make an argument. Support your idea in some way. I'm interested in seeing who may agree with you, but I doubt that I'll be surprized by them.

Unfortunately, Bob, he's not kidding.

Post 3

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 7:30pm

I value a full grown woman's privacy (her privacy of knowledge that she was/is pregnant, and the chance of such being discovered) more than a unwanted (unwanted by the mother) newborn's life. Sorry, but at this stage of human development I don't value such a human child any more than another's unwanted cat or dog.

What is gained by the woman being punished?

Post 4

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 8:53pm

Notice the absence of mention of the newborn�s rights, instead it�s �I don't value such a human child��

Given Dean�s stage of development, I�ll take the cat or dog.

Post 5

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 1:29am

The qualities of an adult human that make me desire an adult to have human rights are not present in such a child. Wonderful things like productiveness, intelligence, and security.

I still think it is very much a crime, murder, to kill a child that is wanted by the mother or depending, the father.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 4/09, 2:28am)

Post 6

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 2:26am

I'd be interested in hearing what you think the punishment should be.

Post 7

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 5:31am

Dean, at what age do you think parents can no longer treat their offspring like discardable items?

Right now, the law requires parents to care for their offspring until the legal age of adulthood.

So it would help to clarify your position if you would articulate what claim, if any, a helpless child has between birth and adulthood to the productive abilities of the people who brought him into this world.

Assume that the parents have the legal right to transfer all parental rights and responsibilities to other caretakers at any time.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 4/09, 5:36am)

Post 8

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 7:07am

The qualities of an adult human that make me desire an adult to have human rights are not present in such a child. Wonderful things like productiveness, intelligence, and security.

Dean, I don't think this idiot mother exhibited productiveness or intelligence. Apparently she was either too stupid to know she was pregnant or she was in complete denial. Then, when she has the baby, she decides the easiest thing to do is to throw it away like garbage. Sorry, I don't have any sympathy.

Post 9

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 7:52am

Assume that the parents have the legal right to transfer all parental rights and responsibilities to other caretakers at any time. (Luke Setzer)

They do.

"Safe haven" laws currently exist in many states, including the one in which this mother lives (according to the linked article.)

She could have left the baby at a firehouse, or similar place, and avoided the charges Dean doesn't feel she deserves anyway. Why didn't she? Why the hell does anyone still go through nine months of unwanted pregnancy, give birth, and put the baby in a trash can, when laws have been passed that allow you to walk away if only you'll go a couple of extra blocks and leave it at a "safe haven" location?!

Sorry, Dean, I'm with Laure. This mother (and her crime cohort sisters) exhibited less sense than any newborn in existence.

Oh, and the appropriate punishment? Forced, irreversible sterilization, at the very least. And some prison time.

This case does NOT represent an extension of the abortion rights debate.

Erica

(Edited by Erica Schulz on 4/09, 7:56am)

Post 10

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 8:10am

Erica suggested:

Oh, and the appropriate punishment? Forced, irreversible sterilization, at the very least. And some prison time.

I concur. No one who demonstrates such an utter incapacity to parent should have that kind of control over his or her body.

Post 11

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 9:16am

Dean -- Do you have much experience with newborns?

Post 12

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 9:28am

Ed!

Who's the cutie?

:-)

Erica

(reminded again of why most people consider them bundles of joy...)

Post 13

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 10:00am

Erica -- That's my now five-month old great niece, Isabella Lucia Hudgins. Yes, I'm an intolerably proud uncle, so here's little Bella a few days old with Uncle Ed and here she is yesterday, inquisitive and exploring:

And:

Post 14

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 10:04am

Beautiful, Ed.

Thanks for sharing.

Erica

Post 15

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 10:07am

At the risk of hijacking this thread over controversial "innate emotions" theories, I will say:

Awwww!!!! That is so CUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, though, the world at large needs to see this side of Objectivists -- loving children, raising families and so forth just like all human beings have done since we evolved into our current species.

Too many "outsiders" wrongly view all those who practice our philosophy as inherently cold, mean, devoid of love and ready to throw babies into the trash on a whim!

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 4/09, 10:07am)

Post 16

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 10:17am

I am more attracted to that fine looking violin, Ed!

I am never particularly attracted to newborns. Really, they aren't as interesting as when they are getting older and able to express themselves and respond to you more explicitly.

Post 17

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 10:47am

I am never particularly attracted to newborns. Really, they aren't as interesting as when they are getting older and able to express themselves and respond to you more explicitly. (Hong Zhang)

People say this frequently about other people's newborns, but I couldn't take my eyes off my own newborn. Everytime he sneezed or yawned, it was interesting to me...

OK,OK...I'll be honest.
Everybody else's newborns thrill me, too. That's just me. :-)

I don't expect everyone to feel the same way, but I don't expect everybody else to find it acceptable to throw them away like refuse, either.

Erica

(Edited by Erica Schulz on 4/09, 11:15am)

Post 18

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 12:00pm

I do think it is despicable, quite a horrible waste.

I don't see how punishing this mother would improve the situation, or improve future situations.

I have been near newborns that were wanted by their mother.

Post 19

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 12:15pm