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Post 20

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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Erica suggested:
Oh, and the appropriate punishment? Forced, irreversible sterilization, at the very least. And some prison time.
I concur.  No one who demonstrates such an utter incapacity to parent should have that kind of control over his or her body.

I concur as well. While individual rights are 'natural' and therefore, inherent to human beings; merely because of the kind of creature that we are -- the free exercise of them isn't. The exercise of your rights is dependent on the background exercise of your very humanity. The inhumane among us are not to be allowed a free exercise of their rights (as that would be both unjust and inexpedient).

Freedom isn't free.

Ed


Post 21

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,
I still think it is very much a crime, murder, to kill a child that is wanted by the mother or depending, the father.
So if the woman (or her sex partner) wants the kid, she's a murderer for killing it, but if they don't want the kid, she's good to go? It's weird for the desire of the woman - or weirder, her sex partner - to determine whether she is a murderer, no?

Jordan
 . 


Post 22

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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If the mother wants the kid, and someone else kills the kid, then the other person committed murder.

Post 23

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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The father of one of my friends was killed by man over some money in a cash register. Is "post birth abortion" equivalent? Is the due punishment equivalent? What sort of punishment would be optimal?

I don't see how sterilization of such a mother would do any good. Nor prison time. Its not like she is going to want to continue getting pregnant, birthing, having children, and killing them. If she did, again, I'd think it is despicable, but I don't see how punishing her would do any good. It seems like going through the process of being pregnant and childbirth are punishment enough.



Jon, your going to far. Good God! Its not like I'm praising her actions! Who are you to claim that you know my feelings towards this, and what I think is despicable? Your way out of line. Its not like I want everyone to start killing their newborn babies, but that's what you seem to be hinting at!
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 4/09, 2:09pm)


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Post 24

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
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But Dean, you have gone over the deep end again over this baby killing woman.

Post 25

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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Over the deep end because I propose/claim that she not be punished?



Are humans intrinsically valuable, or are the valuable by what they do for a particular value holder?

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Post 26

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
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Dean asked:
Are humans intrinsically valuable, or are the valuable by what they do for a particular value holder?
The most important valuer of my own life is my own self.  I value myself as my own ultimate value.  So while I may not have intrinsic value to others, I have objective value to myself and also to others in proportion to the amount of real or potential value I produce for them.

I will assume that an infant has some basic mammalian self-preservation, i.e. self-valuing, traits and thus can, to a certain degree, "automatically" value itself as best such a human infant can.  Generally speaking, the parents who bring that baby into the world have a responsibility to teach it the cardinal values needed to gain and to keep its ultimate value -- its own life.

I will grant that context matters here.  In a large, free society with well known and established laws that allow for easy adoptions of unwanted children, this woman clearly acted immorally and violated the natural rights of her baby.

Had she found herself stranded alone on a remote island with barely enough resources to sustain herself, I would have a hard time condemning her as immoral if she committed infanticide.  But I would not want to build a social ethic and legal code around an "accident" scenario.


Post 27

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 4:41pmSanction this postReply
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Sometimes, my father would go to a local bar then, later at home, he would recite his adventures–they were usually the same. He might be sitting next to a guy wearing cowboy boots and hat, a Texan import, without fail, my dad would comment on the cowboy costume with the tone of voice that implied that the man was a faggot.

This, of course, did not go over well; and it would end in a fist fight. Smashing faces and getting the s*#t beat out of him made him happy.

He spent his days at an effectual job, pretending that he was on top of the world.

(Edited by Guy Stanton on 4/09, 4:55pm)


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Post 28

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 5:50pmSanction this postReply
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Right, Dean—you feel it’s despicable. No more so than wasting a cat, but despicable nonetheless. My apologies.

Post 29

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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With neither the virtues of an Objectivist nor even of a kind-hearted religionist, Dean says of child birth: "It seems like going through the process of being pregnant and childbirth are punishment enough."

I quote Genesis 3:16,

KJV Unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

NASB: To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

Perhaps rather than forced sterilization, the proper punishment for the killer in his eyes would be continuous surrogate pregnancy unto death?

Dean says: "I value a full grown woman's privacy (her privacy of knowledge that she was/is pregnant, and the chance of such being discovered) more than a unwanted (unwanted by the mother) newborn's life. Sorry, but at this stage of human development I don't value such a human child any more than another's unwanted cat or dog."

Dean, I certainly value your work here as Web Developer on Rebirth of Reason, to a certain extent. But I assume that were you to resign or become otherwise "unavailable" someone would take your place. I am curious whether you carry large sums of cash or other valuables on you person? Would you be willing to wager your "value to me" against the value of you movable property to me? Do you wear easily pawnable accessories or jewelry, or carry high value electronics? May I have your home address, copies of your keys and your daily schedule? Will you travel with me to a country where organ harvesting is a thriving market? Or would you be willing to allow me access to your car or room at the next Objectivist function at which we might meet?

And finally, are there any other Objectivists here, who, like myself, never actually were newborns, so never had to pass Mr. Gores' "I value you more or less than a cat" test?

Ted Keer





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Post 30

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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Dean's viewpoint seems justified to me to some extent, only in a legal, rather than moral sense.  The mother's actions were clearly immoral, but not much more than others who accomplish the same end in a manner that is currently legal.  Had she or someone else had the foresight to puncture the "fetus's" brain with some scissors or anther sharp object prior to full delivery in order to end the life then it would technically not be a murder.  Other ordinances might still be violated in such a situation for which she could be held liable, but then there would be little, or no press over which wecould express our moral outrage. 

Post 31

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 8:14pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, you may never have been a newborn but I can see you wear Texan boots and have jumped at Dean’s bait.


Post 32

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 10:44pmSanction this postReply
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Dean is younger than most here, and usually more seriously-scientific about philosophical matters.

This should lead to a greater tolerance for his actions from us all, if he happened to go so far out on a philosophical limb -- that it would likely break (like he has now, in this thread).

He's wise for his age (even if mistaken). Let's give credit where it is due. He can be intellectually-wrong and still moral, if he's merely informationally-misguided. I think he's wrong and still moral.

Ed


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Post 33

Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 5:01amSanction this postReply
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Assumptions --
1.  I believe that most philosophy is rationalization of emotional opinions.  We believe what we do for some reasons and then justify those beliefs for other reasons. 

2.  I also believe that no one really knows "most people" or even many (if any) other people.  You only know yourself inside. 

3.  Finally, I grant that 2. shows that 1. might only apply to me.

Argument

While I recoil at the murder of the infant and Dean's defense of it, stepping back and thinking it through makes his arguments no less horrid than the defenses of war that parade through here.  Killing innocents, killing Islamo-fascists, killing enemy invaders, invading other nations where other people are killed...  killing people who threaten you on the street, killing... killing... killing....  And we call that rational discourse.

In Dean's chilling assertions I find an element of my own legal theory which I find hard to reconcile with other facts that I claim to have perceived: what's the point of punishment?  My theory is based on restitution, redress, and restoration.  None of that applies very well in a murder.  Tomorrow night, in my class in "Evidence and Procedure" we are having a mock trial at the actual district court because the presiding judge is our professor.  My role is to prosecute a teenager whose Suzuki Samurai rolled over and killed a passenger who was not wearing a seatbelt.  (That and other elements are more or less balanced to make the mock trial useful to all participants.  In another, I play the role of a police investigator who has a personal relationship with the accused.)  In that case, I am going to argue that while the defendent has her life ahead of her, the victim is dead.

Some here argue that the state has a compelling interest in the life of a human only after the umbilical chord is cut, even though that human has only marginally more attributes than the moment before. 

Luke -- who is not a parent; as Dean is not -- claims that a baby "values its own life" to some extent.  Silly as that sounds, how, then, do we judge the anti-abortionist filmclip a fetus seeking to avoid the suction needle?

On the other hand, fans of the cartoon 300, will recognize the parental right to infanticide.  This goes back to the wilds.  Mother birds push the unfit from the nest. This is deep within us, who and what we are as beings with a specific nature.

... but then, so is killing...  and we make that wrong.

Why?

Maybe if you anger someone else enough to make them want to kill you, then you deserve to die.  After all, your death would only be a proactive retaliation, would it not?

Personally, I think not, but I am willing to follow the axioms and theorems of Objectivism wherever they lead... not that I would "stay" there, but I would like to know the ends for which these means are being applied.

Applied by whom?

As a mother, Hong Zhang has a different worldview than Dean, who is not a father.  Both use the same philosophy to justify different opinions.  The law of non-contradiction requires that one (or both) of them be wrong.  Or is that the case?

"Would you like fries with that?"  If all choices are moral choices, then, the choice to supersize your order should be arguable from the law of identity and someone who does (or does not) supersize their fries is moral (or im).


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Post 34

Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 7:28amSanction this postReply
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>Dean is younger than most here...

That's no excuse for such idiocy and lack of common sense.

The only excuse that I'd allow is that he has temporarily lost his sanity, again. ;-)


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Post 35

Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 6:51amSanction this postReply
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Marotta: "...I am willing to follow the axioms and theorems of Objectivism wherever they lead... not that I would "stay" there..."

Thompson: "He's wise for his age (even if mistaken)."

The art of non-contradiction is always a handy tool to use. If one doesn’t, any good points one might offer are cancelled out, something like 1-1 = 0.


Post 36

Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 8:11amSanction this postReply
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Such a delight to see a lynching first thing in the morning. No one has addressed Deans point. You all value your own infants. You cuddle them, love them, make plans for them, they have bright futures. Their potentials are unlimited, But what of the infants who are not cuddled, not loved, and no one makes plans for them? Their potentials may be more on the order of a Jeffrey Dahmer. That is the reality behind Deans point of view.

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Post 37

Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 9:20amSanction this postReply
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Dean:
If the mother wants the kid, and someone else kills the kid, then the other person committed murder.

I still don't get it. Murder is the intentional killing of another. Murder doesn't depend on whether someone else wants that other, be that other a kid or adult. I mean, if no one wants a particular adult, then can we kill that adult without it being murder? I'd think what matters here is (a) whether to include the kid in our moral sphere, and (b) whether it's justifiable to kill the kid even if the kid is included. I'll leave the infanticide discussion for others.

Jordan


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Post 38

Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 9:52amSanction this postReply
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M. Erickson, I will directly respond to M. Gores' ideas with the same question that has been asked of him:

When does a human gain the right to live his/her own life, based solely on the fact that he/she is human?

Also, Jordan's question stands: Are people who are only "worth" something to others bestowed with rights?

If you can't answer why at X arbitrary event/age an infant/fetus has no rights but at X event/age it does. then you have no business drawing the line.


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Post 39

Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

If the mother doesn't want the child, than she is not going to press charges against someone who did kill her child. At this point in the child's development, I am concerned about the parent's parental rights, not non-existent rights of a practically knowledge-less unintelligent child.

Murder, because if wanted then within a short time-span the child will become a knowledgeable intelligent being.



Now maybe I should drive towards the heart of the matter. I think we would have to agree on a particular line before we'd agree on this subject, or maybe even before you think I am sane in some cases apparently. A disclaimer, I am no expert on newborns, as Ed Hudgins (thank you for all of the political work that you do) has suggested. I am sitting back on my ivory chair, thinking there is practically little difference in a unborn child as a newborn.

One major difference, and it is a major one, is that the new born can live without the mother's help (anyone's help may do). So it seems ridiculous and quite wasteful that the mother would kill the child when so many people would like to raise the child. Yet then there may sometimes be the mother's desire to keep the knowledge of her being pregnant or going through childbirth a secret. Indeed, she has a reasonable chance to keep her secret and still allow the baby to live by anonymous drop-off. So this point is of no concern.

When is the child so far developed that one should treat the child as a thing with human rights? Things to consider might be the child's learning ability, knowledge, problem solving ability, emotions, physical ability, cuteness, what else?

Should the answer be: "When the child can live without the mother's womb"? But this answer may not always be satisfactory, as medical technology improves we will be able to create environments where younger and younger humans will be able to survive outside of the womb. To the point where a child need not ever need be in a womb, eventually.

Then where does one draw the line? And why?

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