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Post 20

Friday, December 30, 2005 - 9:52amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

As someone who's taken lots of flack for defending you, I wonder why you are directing sarcastic comments at me? What is it you think is wrong here to deserve that tone?

Ethan


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Post 21

Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Sorry. I was not addressing you - I even thought of excluding you in that post. (btw - I actually like your quote and agree with it - I just don't like the present context.)

Did you know that the forum Robert Malcolm quoted is private and by invitation only? I am simply dazzled by the efficacy of his spy work. You have a serious contender for your former job

Does this type of activism qualify as gathering low-hanging fruit?

Michael


(Edit - It occurs to me that, as a site devoted to the sanctity of private property - even in the realm of the Internet, there is something seriously wrong with leaving a post like that up.)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 12/30, 10:35am)


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Post 22

Friday, December 30, 2005 - 8:12amSanction this postReply
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Robert M.,

While I will not be posting on ROR, I must address what you just did.

Salon of Liberty is an invite-only, adult, private forum, hosted by Jeanine Ring. I was asked to join it a couple of weeks ago.

Now, I have no problem with the world knowing what I said there about my recent experiences on ROR (a place that has a lot of goodness in it). I could care fucking less.

When I write there, it is to a small (maybe 92 members) group that is much more diverse than ROR. It is an intimate, and private place, and that is clear as the driven snow. And, when I write there, it is in an intimate style directed specifically at and only for those members. That is the way those places work, by design. When I write there, it often includes things about my family, my church, and so on. Personal things, some of which you saw fit to include in your post, for reasons that I can only interpret as malevolent ones- there is no other explanation.

I have contacted Jeanine and let her know what you did. While I cannot speak for her, I sincerely hope that she throws your ass out of there, or whoever it was that provided you with that post, if that is the case. Clearly, you broke her trust when you went into that private place, and pulled a post without her permission (or mine).

Is there anyone else over there who should be worried? Anyone else you have in mind the next time you get a wild hair? Since it is an intimate, personal place, you have a lot to choose from.

To go into a secure environment and extract anything without permission is below-board, and now that the very concrete reality of that is out here, I hope you do the right thing, and take that post down. If not, Joe should.

That spoke volumes, Robert- many more volumes than what you hoped to achieve from pulling what I wrote out of a place that clearly is not designed to be a distribution point.

Respectfully,
rde


Post 23

Friday, December 30, 2005 - 3:03pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

My personal thanks.

Principles are important, even when you disagree with somebody or even reject their ideas.

Michael


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Post 24

Friday, December 30, 2005 - 3:29pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

If the topic were protecting people's privacy or property rights, Rich wouldn't have posted my own private RoRMail comment to him telling him to take his religious ramblings to the dissent board.  I think he's a hypocrite who got caught badmouthing people, and decided to play the victim.  If it were his own private forum, I would have left the comments there.  Read this post he just made...particularly the last few lines, and keep in mind the RoRMail.
To go into a secure environment and extract anything without permission is below-board, and now that the very concrete reality of that is out here, I hope you do the right thing, and take that post down. If not, Joe should.

That spoke volumes, Robert- many more volumes than what you hoped to achieve from pulling what I wrote out of a place that clearly is not designed to be a distribution point.
Since there was a third party involved, i.e. Jeanine, I removed the note.


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Post 25

Friday, December 30, 2005 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I will not disguise the fact that I read Rich much differently than what has been demonstrated here recently (including the hypocrite evaluation).

For instance, I was very interested to see where the building bridges for specific goals activism approach would lead - but I see that this type of activism is not of any interest at all to the RoR community, at least with Rich.

However, in my mind, my comments on property rights specifically referred to Jeanine and I should have mentioned her name. My lapse. Sorry.

On e-mails, I have serious doubts about defining e-mails as private property (although I do agree that an element of discretion should be involved, due to the private nature of private communications).

Michael


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Post 26

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 12:47amSanction this postReply
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MSK, maybe you can tell me why you have such grave concerns about someone reprinting an email sent to many people, but don't think it's a problem when it's only sent to one person?  One is a violation of rights, but not the other?  One is a violation of privacy, but not the other?

And your statement about what kind of activism is of interest on RoR is baseless.  Rich didn't suggest specific forms of activism.  He suggested a complete surrender to irrationality by claiming we shouldn't bring up the fact that religion and faith are not based on reason.  Fight the fundamentalists, but don't argue in essentials?  Try to convince everyone that we aren't any different?  Sounds a lot like your cheek-turning article.  Find common ground by surrendering completely.

Bridge-building cannot come at the price of sanctioning irrationality and pretending all of our beliefs are equally valid.  Nor should we ever try to fight fundamentalists by arguing their beliefs are just as good as ours, but we happen to think force is wrong.  Rand had plenty to say on the evils of compromise, and what kinds of cooperation with others are possible without sacrifice.  Rich's suggestions weren't even close.


Post 27

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 4:31amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

To be clear, taking a post from an invitation-only forum and posting it on another is a violation of the property of the forum owner. That is pretty clear to me. Robert Malcolm did that and he owes an apology to Jeanine. (I won't hold my breath for that to happen, though.)

Showing (posting) an e-mail - or even letter - you receive is more an infringement of privacy - not a violation of property, and even then, it depends on the case. Or maybe could you explain to me just how an e-mail or letter you send to someone is legally defined as your own property? Sorry. That concept is simply wrong.

(There is a libel consideration I am aware of if sensitive or confidential information is given that causes damage to a reputation on being publicly disclosed, but I didn't see anything of that nature in your e-mail to Rich. Your reputation was not impacted at all. Anyway, possible libel is a far cry from claiming that an e-mail is the private property of the one who sends it.)

For the record, I consider that posting that e-mail from you was a lack of discretion by Rich, not a violation of your property.

On Rich, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. You seem very inclined to misunderstand his words on purpose (like adding on that completely wrong "surrender" term as if he - or I - ever suggested that) and sincerely, I don't want to keep saying things like, he said "this," not what you said he said.

Wanna be right? Then you're right. OK? I don't care anymore. I'm tired of all the bickering, which is all this whole thing is. It's certainly not productive. There are important things I have to be doing and I imagine you too.

You are simply hostile to Rich and now he's out of here. So is there any other problem? You win. Wanna keep talking about him?

For myself, I'm not going to post on this anymore. And feel free to put more incorrect words in my mouth if you wish. (Thank goodness the former posts are there for comparison.) I think it is wrong to do that, but I will not protest any further.

Michael

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Post 28

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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From what I've gathered, Rich's primary goal is to separate fundamentalist religious ideas from the government. His plan to make this happen involves uniting everyone who doesn't want fundamentalist Christian and fundamentalist Muslims.

He wanted to "unite" Objectivists too. Unfortunately, the Objectivists weren't uniting because they condemn accepting ideas as true without evidence or even when there is contrary evidence. Practically every time faith was criticized, Rich would come in and attempt to defend it in some way. To me, this was the most bothersome thing about his character.

I want the world I live in to be a more capitalist one. I don't care what religion/philosophy the people in power have, so long as they are the ones that will make the world the most capitalist. If that is the sort of government Rich is pushing toward, than that is great, in that way, we are united.

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Post 29

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 9:15amSanction this postReply
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I'm writing an article about this right now. The type of double standard being used by Rich needs to be discussed, as it's a common issue.

Ethan


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Post 30

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I think you too would respect the privacy of emails. I know that when I send them to people I expect that that is who I'm sending them to. It's not written in law, unless I ask sepcifcally, but it's a matter of benevolence.

Ethan


Post 31

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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Why is that when someone discusses an unpopular view, it invariably leads to exile? Objectivist sites are so tiresome in that regard. Rich was a nice guy who contributed some good stuff. He has been around here long enough that he should have been given the benefit of the doubt not tarred and feathered.
Of course all ideas are not equal, everyone here knows that, but neither is ability which many forget. Ideas are either right or wrong and can be debated. Dismissing someone because certain ideas are 'offensive' is subjectivism of the worst sort. There is no right to not be offended, that is absurd on its face. To take offense is a personal decision, one chooses to be offended . . . or not.

Rich didn't suggest specific forms of activism. He suggested a complete surrender to irrationality by claiming we shouldn't bring up the fact that religion and faith are not based on reason.
I personally did not find Rich irrational or willing to surrender to the irrational, and so what if he did. If an accurate representation of Objectivism is a requirement for posting here 90% of the membership should be run off, and the remaining 10% would still be louts by ARI's standards.

Religion and God

Rand did not excoriate God, she attacked religion. Much of what Rich was trying to say, is better explained by Rand in her introduction to the Fountainhead, i.e. "the difficulty with discussions of the spiritual is the undefined prejudicial concepts involved." She tell us, "[repeating for emphasis]…I said that religious abstractions are the product of man’s mind, not of supernatural revelation". Rand's quote reminds us that it is incorrect to dismiss religious abstractions as purely mystical or as a hallucinations of the mind. She chose to focus on faith v. reason and to attack the concept of altruism, brilliantly recognizing that it was the root cause of collectivism. She attacks religion, not some retired clockmaker. She like the Deists of the Enlightenment simply ignores ‘him’ as irrelevant. She has nothing but praise for the Deists of the Enlightenment and for those who founded this nation
But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

Leonard Peikoff in commenting on America’s founding notes, "The leaders of the American Enlightenment did not reject the idea of the supernatural completely; characteristically, they were deists, who believed that God exists as nature's remote, impersonal creator, and as the original source of natural law; but, they held, having performed these functions, God thereafter retires into the role of a passive, disinterested spectator ..." In terms of activism, i.e. connecting with the over 90% of the people in this country and this world who are religious, take notice that Deism is not too far removed from the Objectivist’s belief in reality as the final arbiter, the personification of ‘nature’ and in a benevolent universe.

Ethics

When Nietzsche wrote "God is dead", "God" represented the shared culture which had once been the defining and uniting characteristic of European civilization. Nietzsche was concerned that the acceptance of the God’s death would mean the end of accepted standards of morality and of purpose; that without accepted faith based standards, society would be threatened by nihilism. A cursory glance at today’s Europe shows us how prescient that was. Young minds are filled with the ‘wisdom’ of Jacques Derrida and Umberto Eco who tell us that firmly held convictions and clear visions of the truth are ‘worthless hallucinations of the mind’, and that ‘truth and fact are judgmental’. Eco perfects his villainy with "The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen [should be viewed] as the beginning of modern depravity."

The founders, too, feared that banishing religion from the public square would result in an absence of ethics or in SOLO’s vernacular ‘pomo wanking’. George Washington noted, "Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions." Washington was implying what Rand observes when she notes in her journal,
"Men’s intellectual capacities have always been so unequal, that to the thinkers, the majority of their brothers have probably always seemed sub-human. And some men may still be, for all the evidence of their rationality, or lack of it."
Objectivists rightly argue that Ethics do not depend upon a belief in God, but the few who truly understand the philosophy of Ayn Rand are highly intelligent and not the average man on the street. The ordinary man is not capable of studying Epistemology in order to come to an understanding of what Ethics are proper for man. To the average man, religion and ethics are synonymous; freedom from God equates to freedom from morality, and they act accordingly. Those who are militantly godless, as opposed to those who treat God as irrelevant, suffer from unintended consequence. Their approach results in a vacuum invariably filled by post modernism, i.e., a society without values.



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Post 32

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Rich wasn't exiled. He left.


Why is it that everyone forgets this. He chose to leave. He wanted toleration for his ideas, and was poiltely asked to keep certain topics in the dissent section. He didn't like that and chose to leave altogether.

Let me say it again.

He CHOSE to leave.

Ethan


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Post 33

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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Objectivists rightly argue that Ethics do not depend upon a belief in God, but the few who truly understand the philosophy of Ayn Rand are highly intelligent and not the average man on the street. The ordinary man is not capable of studying Epistemology in order to come to an understanding of what Ethics are proper for man. To the average man, religion and ethics are synonymous; freedom from God equates to freedom from morality, and they act accordingly. Those who are militantly godless, as opposed to those who treat God as irrelevant, suffer from unintended consequence. Their approach results in a vacuum invariably filled by post modernism, i.e., a society without values.
That's a bunch of bull.

============================
Below added after this post was sanctioned once:

For morality to exist, you have to have a value holder (something capable of thinking and making decisions that has a value) and options where things can either promote or hinder the value. Anything that promotes the value holder's values is good, anything that hinder's the value holder's values is bad.

What do yo value?
In environmentalism, keeping nature independent of men is the highest value.
In altruism, "helping" others, even at your sacrifice, is the highest value.
In many religions, doing what the God believed in said to do is the highest value.
In objectivism, your ability to live is the highest value.
In Post-Modernism & Nihilism, nothing is of value.
In multiculturalism, letting others practice their beliefs is of highest value.

Who cannot understand that? Attacking religion without showing the other options of highest values may lead a person towards Post-Modernism/Nihilism, but that is not what I am doing.

(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 12/31, 10:12am)


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Post 34

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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Good job of quoting Rand out of context Robert D.   The point of your post is that:

Most people lack intelligence and that we shouldn't criticize religous belief because 90% of people need it to keep them in line.

"To the average man, religion and ethics are synonymous; freedom from God equates to freedom from morality, and they act accordingly. Those who are militantly godless, as opposed to those who treat God as irrelevant, suffer from unintended consequence. Their approach results in a vacuum invariably filled by post modernism, i.e., a society without values."
 
Ayn Rand would never have taken a position like this and you know it. 

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 12/31, 10:36am)


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Post 35

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
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"To the average man, religion and ethics are synonymous; freedom from God equates to freedom from morality, and they act accordingly."

   Have to agree with this, from my own experience - most folk not know of another morality except the religious one, as they are most often told that without a god and commandments, there can be no morality...          


Post 36

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

I stand corrected.  Would he have been moderated if he chose to stay?


Post 37

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 11:00amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

Sorry this all you took from what I said.

Most people lack intelligence and that we shouldn't criticize religous belief because 90% of people need it to keep them in line.
My point is that it must remain in place until supplanted by something, not stripped away by force.   


Post 38

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
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Force????  What on earth are you talking about.  Is anyone here advocating force???????

 - Jason


Post 39

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

Who cannot understand that? Attacking religion without showing the other options of highest values may lead a person towards Post-Modernism/Nihilism, but that is not what I am doing.

Was not accusing you or even referring to you.  This thread went off the subject of you quite aways back.


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