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Post 40

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Rich was moderated when he announced his departure. Standard policy since the days of grandstanding exits on SOLOHQ.

Ethan


Post 41

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

On keeping e-mails private, you wrote (addressed to me), "It's not written in law, unless I ask sepcifcally, but it's a matter of benevolence."

Isn't that basically what I said?

(That is, assuming that choosing to respect privacy is a matter of benevolence. For the record, I believe that respecting privacy includes benevolence, but goes beyond it.)

On a legal nitpick, even if you request confidentiality in an e-mail, I would have to check the statutes, but I don't think law or property rights kick in. I think it stays a private matter, not a government one. I see no benefit in claiming that property rights kick in, either. Affirming the false as true simply because you dislike someone is always wrong. (This is not your case, of course.)

What happens in reality if a request for confidentiality is violated is that the person will no longer trust you. Unless the disclosure involves libel, I don't think much else happens.

Michael


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Post 42

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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I Like People

It's true. I really tend to get along with most everyone I meet. Now, I sure don't agree with all the things these people hold near and dear, but that's usually not an issue. You see, what I bother to speak about or take issue with all depends on the situation. What I say and do changes depending on if I'm meeting someone on the street, at work, at a family party, or at gathering of friends. I give people leeway and respect their right to hold their beleifs, even if I don't respect the beleifs. My repsect for that right only extends as far as that person doesn't try to force them on me or anyone else.

The departure of Rich saddens me in a way, as I often enjoyed his sense of humor and he offered a perspective that, though I often disagreed, gave me some insight into things. There are a few people that have left or been booted off from the old SOLOHQ that I was happy to see go, but Rich doesn't rank among these. He seems like a good person. I sense no malevolence, and would probably enjoy his company and even be able to be his friend if we occasioned to live near one another.

I would ask anyone ready to rail at Rich's departure to really consider this situation and I think you'll find that, the only reason Rich isn't here anymore, is that HE chose to leave, because it suited him. No one here forced him to leave. He wasn't moderated prior to his departure, though he was asked politely to keep certain topics to the dissent board. That request, given the amount of thread spread of his discussions, was quite reasonable.

Now for a little hypothetical fun:

 

Imagine a group of Christians who wish to engage in some activism. The goal, for the sake of this hypothetical, is unimportant but you can pretend they wish to allow prayer groups in public schools. They start having meetings about it and one day this guy comes along and says he’s interested in the same goal and they should work together.

 

During the course of many meetings he discusses why some of the Christians’ ideas are wrong. Offering no evidence for his claims, he is often set upon by those who don;t like to hear this. Upon some questioning he states that he used to be a Christian, but now he’s a Satanist, though still a friend of Christianity.

 

Some of the group members take him to task over his beliefs, and often the topic turns towards this issue, eating up time that could be spent on discussing school prayer. The group organizers say, “Look we’re not interested in hearing about your Satanism, but if you really want to talk about it, just do it in the back-room over there, and anyone else who wants to talk about it with you can do it there.”

 

This isn’t good enough for our Satanist though. He starts talking about how we really shouldn’t make so much of the differences in our beliefs, because we have a common goal in the school prayer issue, and after all, there are others out there who are far more disagreeable than him, like those damned Atheists. “Sure, fine, whatever,” the Christians says. “We don’t agree, but if you keep your Satanism talk to the back-room, it won’t be an issue.” “No way,” says our Satanist. “You guys are just going to drive others away from your cause. I’m leaving since you can’t be more tolerant.”

 

Now, we aren’t Christians and Rich isn’t a Satanist. Other than that, and the fact that Objectivism isn't an arbitrary religious system like Christianity, the parallel in my story is the same. It's not a valid expectation that Rich should be able to say what he likes in the RoR forum just because he happens to support some causes that are important to us as well. It's not enough that he's a nice guy. Apparently, the price we are expected to pay for the privilege of his posting on RoR is that we have to listen to anything no matter how opposed to basic Objectivist principles it is.

 

What am I to do? Rich left on his own, I assume, because RoR wasn't offering him what he wanted. Judging only by the information I have at hand, I'd say that his expectations were unreasonable. RoR offers people a fairly wide degree of posting leeway. It's rare when someone needs to be moderated, and most disagreements resolve themselves peacfully. Joe has even had the kindness to include a dissent space for those really at odds with Objectivism. It's not often that someone needs to be told to post there either, as people seem to use it for it's intended purpose.

 

Ethan


Post 43

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Ethan, your post was insightful. I share your feelings and ideas. In addition, I'm looking forward to less non-objective arguments and propaganda.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 12/31, 3:54pm)


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Post 44

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

less non-objective arguments
fewer.


Post 45

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Post 42 is reasonable, if one shares your assessment of Rich and his postings.  Rich is not by any objective standard a Christian.  He doesn't even believe in the divinity of Christ.  Appearences are deceiving.  I sometimes fear casting aspersions and jumping to conclusions are the only exercise anyone gets around here. ;-)


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Post 46

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 5:43pmSanction this postReply
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Errr I wasn't sugesting he did beleive that Robert.

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Post 47

Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 7:58pmSanction this postReply
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"Objectivists rightly argue that Ethics do not depend upon a belief in God, but the few who truly understand the philosophy of Ayn Rand are highly intelligent and not the average man on the street. "
Oh, good grief! Exactly how tough is "I belong to myself" to understand??
Or "I am, therefore, I think?" Pretty easy shit, if you ask me.
 
I am not the smartest person in the world, but if I can understand it, it's a fair bet any "average" person can.
 
Most "average" Christians can't recite a single verse in the Bible from beginning to end either, or accurately interpret many of the messages without help from religious scholars, or an "easy reader" Cliff Notes version, like "The Living Bible," but they still think of themselves as Christians, and are accepted as Christians throughout the Christian realm. There are some who call themselves Christians who can't even read!
 
And if you ask me, the moral principles in Chrisianity are far more difficult than those outlined by Rand and Objectivism.
 
I think it's very possible to be an illiterate Objectivist. Even an illiterate can be certain his own existence is "good."  
 


Post 48

Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 7:56amSanction this postReply
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Theresa,
 
And if you ask me, the moral principles in Chrisianity are far more difficult than those outlined by Rand and Objectivism.
We disagree and therein lies the problem with many Objectivists.  As I have said many times, because Rand's prose is so accessible, most folks think it is easily understood.  It is only appearently simple.

 
I think it's very possible to be an illiterate Objectivist.
You are clearly correct, see above.

 


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Post 49

Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 10:08amSanction this postReply
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As I have said many times, because Rand's prose is so accessible, most folks think it is easily understood.  It is only appearently simple.
Robert, I would be very interested in learning the glaring difficulties with Objectivism, glaring to the degree they cannot compete with the "against human nature" complexities of Christinity.

Scratch the surface of Christianity, and you'll find it's principles are non-compatable to human existence. Yet scholars work to rationalize these problems and make them coherent by way of substrating with cotton candy the hopeless idea of "faith."  Causation is given up to the emotion of fear, further complicating any meaning of existence through inconsistency.  The only consistency is the suspension of the mind through faith and fear.

Scratch the surface of Objectivism, and you'll find only consistent ideas for understanding the surface. Dig deeper still, more consistencies. If there is a major problem with consistency in Objectivism, I've yet to hear a convincing argument for it.  It can be grasped superficially and consistently, or deeply and consistently.

The only way one could argue that Objectivism can't be understood superficially is if one argues that human nature is as evil at it's core as Christianity claims it is. Rand rejected this claim, and so do I. 

Teresa


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Post 50

Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

Your two recent posts here are wonderfully clear and perceptive.


I think Objectivism is a bit like ice water being flung in one’s face while religions are a bit like a cozy Victorian livingroom, heated by a roaring fire, while one is nestled up in an abundant quilt, reading a favorite romance book, and drinking hot coco out of a huge souvenir mug.


Michael


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Post 51

Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 12:10pmSanction this postReply
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I think Objectivism is a bit like ice water being flung in one’s face while religions are a bit like a cozy Victorian livingroom, heated by a roaring fire, while one is nestled up in an abundant quilt, reading a favorite romance book, and drinking hot coco out of a huge souvenir mug.
That's an interesting visual, Michael. Accept I think of Objectivism as a blazing light that shines on the cause of the comfort and cocoa. And it ain't faith.


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Post 52

Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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One must never forget that civilization - the rise of individualism and acceptance of reason as the means of dealing with reality - arose in spite of religion, not because of it, and it's apologeticness [that is, using religion in supposed support] is as much a subterfage to survival than anything else - precisely because they knew nothing else than the ethics of religion, yet [dimly or more] understood it was wrong for one's wellbeing as humans...

Post 53

Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 2:58pmSanction this postReply
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Haha, yes. And living in a society under religious rule is like plowing the field doing the work of oxen, and then being taxed to the point where you barely survive, While living in a capitalist society is like building your own cozy Victorian living room, heated by a roaring fire, while one is nestled up in an abundant quilt, reading a favorite romance book, and drinking hot coco out of a huge souvenir mug, and its all yours-- earned through consensual work and trade.

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Post 54

Sunday, January 1, 2006 - 5:06pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

ummm, not exactly what I meant about the Victorian stuff. For the spirit or mind religion is a safe warm fuzzy place–that’s the draw you see. The Kinkade of the spirit. The stuff I talked about is kinda of a visual symbolism of coziness, but Objectivism doesn’t have anything to do with the fuzzies. Its like a splash of cold water: fresh, clean, exhilarating, and eye-opening–smack! Wake -up! Focus!


Post 55

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
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Theresa,

It can be grasped superficially and consistently, or deeply and consistently.
 The periodic flame wars, disagreements, and exiles that erupt among Os disprove this theory.  A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

(Edited by Robert Davison on 1/02, 8:28am)


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Post 56

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison,
The periodic flame wars, disagreements, and exiles that erupt among Os disprove this theory. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Why don't you try comparing this forum to another private mostly un-moderated forum of simular size? You will find that this site has considerably less flame wars and "exiles". Disagreements, on the other hand, are plentyfull here. In fact, I disagree with much of what you say, yet I hardly have the time to speak to you.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
That claim lacks context, useless.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 1/02, 9:40am)


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Post 57

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
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This is nonsense, Robert:

The periodic flame wars, disagreements, and exiles that erupt among Os disprove this theory.  A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
NO knowledge is a much more dangerous thing.
Omitting the nature and context of the so called "flame wars" isn't a very constructive approach to your argument, either.  Would you prefer that everyone simply agree with everyone else in lockstep?  

I think you're confusing the complexities of life with Objectivism, which is a method of understanding the complexities of life.

Paying attention to the arguments that happen here is interesting to me. The "flames" (if you can call most of them that, which I don't think most are) are often fine examples of rational judgement calls in an effort to improve the world, not complicate it further. Other's are pure bullshit, which are quickly dowsed by the more rational members here.  It's perfectly delightful to see bullshit put in it's place, and why. 

I like pretty much everyone here.

Anyway, my whole point is that I see the disagreements that happen here as a good thing. They're a way to hassle out the truth for which everyone benefits.

It's "peer review" of the best kind.

Teresa


Post 58

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 12:37pmSanction this postReply
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Theresa,

We disagree that it is 'peer' review.  I attribute it ( the squabbles) to a shallow understanding of the subject, and the emotional need, many exhibit here, to be liked by the 'popular crowd'.

Dean,

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing was said it context.  It referred directly a quote.  And you wonder why I lose my temper?


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Post 59

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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RD:

Sorry I've been away for a few days.

" It referred directly a quote."

You might try [as I just did] putting the remark you are referring to in quotes. Unless you are trying to be purposefully vague. You also might try taking someone's response to you as a whole and considering it instead of picking one thing out of it to be insulting about. You might try not insulting people who are trying to have a discourse with you. i.e.:

"We disagree that it is 'peer' review. I attribute it ( the squabbles) to a shallow understanding of the subject, and the emotional need, many exhibit here, to be liked by the 'popular crowd'.
"

It's no wonder why I get mad at you sometimes.

Teresa,

"Anyway, my whole point is that I see the disagreements that happen here as a good thing. They're a way to hassle out the truth for which everyone benefits."

Absolutely right!! Sanctioned! If only people could keep their goodwill about them while disagreeing.

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