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Post 20

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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I asked: "Seriously, do you think this is HONEST?" and Chris answered "Yes, it is."  But, Chris, you didn't answer my question.  I asked whether you think this is honest, not whether it is honest.  But, wait; you did answer the question, just not in the way I asked it.  Hmm.  Would I have responded if you had just answered "Yes, I do."?  I don't know, maybe I wouldn't have written this post.  Wow!  Have I just been NLPeed?



Post 21

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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Hey Luke,

I suppose when I think of NLP in regards to seduction, I have the mindset that this is manipulating your "target" into doing something against their will.  Not sure how this is rational (so it must not be) but I keep wanting to think that using NLP is pulling the wool over a woman's eyes and not being honest about your intentions.  Using NLP (which I should probably research a bit more) isn't representing any false sense of yourself.  It's a communication tool.  Thanks for the questions to keep me thinking.

Bauer




Post 22

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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I asked: "Seriously, do you think this is HONEST?" and Chris answered "Yes, it is."  But, Chris, you didn't answer my question.  I asked whether you think this is honest, not whether it is honest.  But, wait; you did answer the question, just not in the way I asked it.  Hmm.  Would I have responded if you had just answered "Yes, I do."?  I don't know, maybe I wouldn't have written this post.  Wow!  Have I just been NLPeed?
Is this a hypnotic confusion pattern?




Post 23

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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I'm sitting on the fence still in using NLP for seduction.  And it's one of those white picket fences, with sharp points poking me in some not-so-pleasant places.
And as you think about yourself sitting on that white picket fence and feel the air around you, you may find that you start to become one with the fence. You will find that you accept and welcome those shart points, and it will be an extremely pleasant experience.

(Edited by Chris Baker on 9/27, 10:26am)




Post 24

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 10:33amSanction this postReply
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I suppose when I think of NLP in regards to seduction, I have the mindset that this is manipulating your "target" into doing something against their will. 
You are assuming that women don't want to have sex. They do.

Unfortunately, many women also have a lot of messed up social programming. They have been told that they shouldn't be "easy" and other garbage. These things tend to work against each other.

I have no qualms at all about using what I have learned Ross Jeffries and his Speed Seduction course. I bought it over a year ago. My goal is to share a great experience with women and bring them into states of happiness that they may not have deemed possible.

Will I use boy friend destroyer patterns? Hell, yes.




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Post 25

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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Ross caught a lot of flack recently from subscribers to his daily newsletter when he mentioned the "Boyfriend Destroyer" pattern.  Some steady boyfriends got downright defensive against it!  The harsh reality is that many people are in so-so relationships because they think they cannot do any better.  If Chris comes along and shows a woman a better kind of relationship, she might realize she has committed to a man unworthy of commitment after all.  So I do not have a moral problem with the "Boyfriend Destroyer" pattern provided it gets used honestly by a man with sincere intentions of delivering greater long range values to the woman.

A woman fully and rationally committed to her boyfriend as the best possible will not fall for the "Boyfriend Destroyer" anyway.




Post 26

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
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One thing Ross and his community stress over and over again is: "Leave her better off than when you found her." Ross isn't fond of other seduction schools, partially for these reasons.

Many women only change relationships when a better man comes along. It is quite rare to find a good one who is available. And I have seen many women become available and then just grab on to the next guy who is available. And many women think a relationship begins with a first date.

I have caught some flack for saying this, but nobody has proven me wrong on it: "Most women get what they deserve."

If those "steady bore friends" are worried about bore friend destroyer patterns, then they should just look in the mirror and see what they are giving their girl friends. Jealousy is always, always about the insecurity of the person who is acting jealous.

I don't know of Ross getting any flack for teaching bore friend destroyers. They are an essential tool in any seduction strategy.

I never dreamed that I would be talking about Ross Jeffries on this board. Even more amazing is that the debate is actually civil and well considered.

"Oh, you have a bore friend. Does he tell you that he loves you? Or is that only when you get bored with him?"

"A bore friend is like a cold. You can catch one anytime. That doesn't mean you want to keep it."

(Edited by Chris Baker on 9/27, 2:35pm)




Post 27

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 1:12pmSanction this postReply
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Chris, regarding the flack I mentioned, I received this August 31, 2006:

Ross Jeffries' Persuasion/Seduction Newsletters
Luscious Hate Mail..And The Other Side Too!
Dear Speed Seduction® Student,

God, I love this job.

I have to confess that pissing people off and rattling their cages is one of my guilty pleasures and pastimes.

If you have a Speed Seduction Home Study Course (http://www.seduction.com/products/rj187.asp)
then you know I can be a snotty, sarcastic, son of a gun. I LIKE getting a "rise" out of people.

So, when I get really luscious hate mail, I've GOT to share it.

Here is a real "slam doozy" to share with you. And no, I am NOT making this up. This is exactly what this guy sent me and I am including the headers so you can see for yourself. I've even left in his spelling errors.

From: Richard m (details deleted)
To: Ross Jeffries yatesj@ix.netcom.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: And The Married Woman Said, "My Phone Fell In The Pond!"

"dear ross,
go to hell for going to a married woman. Have you seen the damage done to entire families because some jerk got between the family members. how selfish can anyone be just to get into someones pants. the families are distroyed . there are many single women out there i'll do them the favour and i'll forget the married women. rmember kharma can be hell on earth. besides in this part of the country it could get you shot. RM"

Wow, Rich. I'm sure your double-wide trailer was shaking with rage as you wrote to me.

Let me just say I honor any and all relationships where there is real satisfaction and love.

What destroys families and relationships is hate, possessiveness and fear.

I trust that women, whether single or married, are adult and mature enough to make their own decisions.

Actually, if you read some good books like "A Passion For More" and "The Erotic Silence Of The American Wife" you might see that injecting some passion and life into a woman is something that can, potentially SALVAGE a relationship.

Now, let me be more clear. I'm not even sure I would take this further with this married women because I'm not clear yet that she can handle it.

That's right; I've actually passed up some very juicy,
incredibly hot married women who wanted to get it on precisely because I felt it WOULD ruin their marriage or lead to dangerous and bad consequences for them and myself.

Right now, with this woman, I'm just exploring the potential and possibility.

I'll tell you one final thing: a man who has good communication and who is pleasuring his woman never has to worry if she is going to "cheat". She is either going to stick with him or at least let him know if she's unhappy and something is going on.

On to more mail. Here is a different perspective on the whole boyfriend/husbore destroying theme:

From: Phil To: Ross Jeffries yatesj@ix.netcom.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:40 AM
Subject: Thank You for the BF Destroy!

"Ross,
Thank You for putting out the BF Destroyer (BFD) for all mankind to use to help womankind get past their past.
It is a nice tool for me to decide if and when to use it. I have found what you said about WHEN „a woman is truly satisfied and pleased where she is at, with the man she is with, you aren't going to get anywhere, .....‰ to be true. My attempts of the BFD on that woman seems to have the effect of them feeling a challenge to the way they feel about him, and they strongly resist by way of recalling all the delightful-wonderful feelings and thoughts they have about him. What I end up doing is
reinforcing that which I could not do anyway."

Phil,

Spot on. If a woman is happy with her man, you aren't going to get anywhere with any technology. If she isn't happy, why does her man have some unwritten right to hang on to her, no matter what?

People aren't property, even the people we love. We don't own them. They don't own us. End of story.

Here is another perspective:


"From: "Luis "
To: <yatesj@ix.netcom.com
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Yet More On Boyfriend Destroying!

I always say: Just because u have a job it does mean you are not looking. Or just because u are taken it does not mean u are not looking. With that in mind I pursue a woman that I like and who has a boyfriend. I believe that it is the nature of humans to always look for better deals whether with people, things or services.
Bye now."

Luis,

Very true. The other thing that many guys don't is that, at any given time, most attractive women are going to be with someone, or thinking about someone they want to get with or go back to. Very few women are totally clear and freely "single" in the sense of having no romantic connection, whether ongoing or on their mind.

And so, often, the "boyfriend" really is just a place holder
til something and someone better comes along. Or he's ok for most things, but the lovin' sucks so she needs someone to scratch that itch.

We need to get past the hide-bound, conventional notions of "boyfriend/girlfriend, perfect luv, don't break us apart" mindset that is creating incredibly cruel pressures to idealize every possible and every actual connection. It serves NO one.

One more bit of fan mail before we move on:

"Dear Ross

I have had the privilege for some time now to read your
newsletters though I must be frank and tell you that I still haven't gotten around to purchase any of your products yet which I plan to by the way.

On the matter of boyfriend destroyers I would like to say to " the Preacher /Anon " you responded to in your newsletter that you might do well in growing up and realize the fact that:

Women - today - are at the deepest most fundamental level a product of millions of years of evolution where men were either tough-moral depraved-sons of bitches fighting for survival and to protect the family around the clock or dead.

And Mr. Preacher - though I know that you are a sweet, romantic guy and that girls couldn't be better off with anyone than you that does not change the fact that only a friggin' snap of the fingers and the caveman will activate powers so deeply embedded in your woman and of such incomprehensible magnitude that in spite of all her love for you her nu-nu is now his possession only because that's his will. - And there ARE cave-men out there!

Therefore Mr. Preacher my advice for you is as I mentioned to grow up

Only raw seduction power with good intention towards yourself and your target matters. Become a master of this art so that when you find a woman you want to make yours for life you know about every shitty-dirty-nasty trick - and they are many and they are gruesome (Mr. Jeffries i a Sunday school-boy by comparison if you insist on addressing the ethics that is) and so may stand a chance to fight all the other ass-holes off.

That's all Preacher. May Athena be with you, always.

David, Student, Denmark"

Wow. Thanks Dave. I couldn't have said it better myself. Although I don't agree that we have to be "cavemen". To be scientifically accurate, we have no idea what the mating rituals were like for our genetic ancestors. They didn't exactly leave diaries.

Too many people substitute Hollywood imagery for science, and that too is a huge intellectual mistake.

Further, there is tons of actual evidence that "co-operation" is as much a part of survival as competition. Neo-Darwinism is on the outs, as more and more we realize it is the fittest GROUPS that survive. Fit groups MUST exercise "co-operation".

For more on this, I can't recommend highly enough an amazing book called "The Biology of Belief" by Bruce Lipton. He is the Ross Jeffries of biology!

Anyway:

What we can observe, without speculation or fantasy, is that women (and indeed, men too, all humans) respond positively to strong leadership and strong intent, properly presented.

I'll close by giving you a brief anecdote. The other day, I was exchanging pleasantries with a counter-girl at a local
restaurant, and she was beaming.

I said to her, "Why are you so happy?

She said, "because you are just so NICE to me, whenever I see you".

I very gently corrected her. "I'm not "nice". Nice is weak. I'm "pleasant". "Pleasant" is power, held in proper restraint, and exercised with precision."

She actually shuddered with pleasure at that point and I saw her face go "doggy dinner bowl". In fact, I could almost smell panty-moisture forming!

"Wow", she said all dreamy-like. "I LIIIIKE that!"

That's all for today, both Ross bashers and Ross lovers. I enjoy both groups. It's the "lukewarmers" I can't stand.

Piece and peace,

RJ

P.S. For keys on developing a powerful presence that is also pleasant, and taking on the practices, beliefs and energies that really draw in women, check out my very controversial Magick/Psychic Influence Course:

http://www.seduction.com/products/rj170.asp

Yes, I already know I am going to hell, in league with Stan, the Deevil, Baalbeezulbob, etc etc etc. My born again brothers, Alan and Steve, have made that VERY clear to me, and I'm sure old Scratch can't wait to get his thermonuclear mitts on my sac for eternity. So y'all who want to preach to me, just open up another quart of white-lightning moonshine and dance around your
double-wide til the welfare check comes, ok?

For those of you who want to open your mind and LEARN some kick-ass skills, I really recommend the Magick/PI course.

P.P.S. Ironically, born-again Steve says that born-again Alan is ALSO going straight to hell because he (Alan) doesn't believe in the right way and to the right extent. Can you believe all this judgment from followers of a guy who gave strict orders NEVER to judge?

This newsletter, and all of its contents are copyright 2004, Ross Jeffries. However this newsletter may be reprinted and re-used in any format, without prior consent, provided all content, including all links, are kept intact, proper credit for authorship is given, and the newsletter is given for free, without charge.
 

In the event you are reading this from a third party source, you may subscribe for free by going here



(Edited by Luke Setzer on 9/27, 1:14pm)




Post 28

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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Chris/Luke,

When I sit on a fence, I guess I could become one with the fence, or realize that it is not the fence that is poking me, only myself doing the poking (okay, feel free to lambast me for the lame "Matrix" reference).  As a whole, the posts written by Chris and Luke since my last post earlier today seem to have one theme in common.  Women are more often than not mature adults capable of making their own informed, thoughtful decisions, and in no way should I feel bad or guilty if she chooses a better man (me) than the one she is with, or feel bad about what techniques I use to get her if she is single, as long as she is making the decision (I draw the line at kidnapping).  Great discussion, if you ask me.

Bauer




Post 29

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

I was on that free list, but am not anymore. I am not sure why.

I am on his Yahoo group. You get invited to that group if you have bought his course or attended one of his seminars.

In some respects, the Yahoo group is better than the product. There are a few guys there who give out excellent advice. But the volume is kind of high, and some guys in it are completely clueless.

I also recommend ultimateseduction@yahoogroups.com.

Sad but true, there aren't many good NLP discussion groups on the Net. I am fortunate to have a good community here in Austin.

(Edited by Chris Baker on 9/27, 2:34pm)




Post 30

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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Women are more often than not mature adults capable of making their own informed, thoughtful decisions
That wasn't necessarily my intention. There is often little thought to the relationship decisions that people make. I do think SS gives you some insight into the hows and whys of those decisions.

You learn to think of attraction as a process, not a feeling. It's something that can be turned on and off. As a man, it's your job to figure out what the woman's attraction process is. Every woman has a different process, and you have to pay attention to learn it.

Some people would say I'm not completely innocent. I was born in 1971. It was one particular girl that inspired me to buy SS. That girl worked at Gold's Gym and was only 17 at the time--a difference of over 16 years. I never got a chance to run a single pattern on her. She turned 18 in September 2005 and left Gold's in December. I didn't get her, but I had a really bad case of "one-itis" anyway.

Many SS guys are interested in younger women. I can't stand a lot of single women my age.

Women categorize men pretty quickly. Some men go into the potential lovers file. Some men go into the LJBF file. When a woman puts a man into the LJBF file, it is extremely difficult for him to get out of it. This is ultimately why Ross says that "dating is for women you are already sleeping with."

Personally, I amend that to making out. Obviously, there are many risks to having a lot of sex. Ross understands this, too, and has chastised men for being careless.
and in no way should I feel bad or guilty if she chooses a better man (me) than the one she is with, or feel bad about what techniques I use to get her if she is single, as long as she is making the decision
You should feel just fine about it. I still have a long way to go with this stuff, but I am happy I found it.

Unfortunately, books are often judged by their covers. The same thing happens with men. There are many good men out there who don't have the power and choice in relationships that they should have. With SS, I found something that is giving me more power and choice.

I also made some comments on this stuff here.




Post 31

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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Chris wrote:

Women categorize men pretty quickly. Some men go into the potential lovers file. Some men go into the LJBF file. When a woman puts a man into the LJBF file, it is extremely difficult for him to get out of it. This is ultimately why Ross says that "dating is for women you are already sleeping with."

Personally, I amend that to making out. Obviously, there are many risks to having a lot of sex. Ross understands this, too, and has chastised men for being careless.


Ah, yes, nothing like a nice, hot session of kissing and hugging and petting to brighten a person's day, eh?  It's a good middle ground between no contact at all and sex and affirms your ability to interest another person at least that far.




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Post 32

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you Luke and Bauer, for the excellent info.  NLP itself is quite interesting, but had I known who this Ross Jeffries person is before reading the quote, I would not have been so inclined to react positively.  What a jerk!  A man who arrives at this state naturally and actually lives his life this way is what I was responding to, not someone who manufactures an attitude in an attempt to bed as many women as possible.  I was thinking of the Rhett Butler type, not the Ross Jeffries type.



Post 33

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn,
No, it isn't honest when it's used in the way that Ross Jeffries promotes.  Intent is key.




Post 34

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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Bauer,
I'll give you my opinion.  As I said in a previous post, I think intent is key.  What are your goals of seduction?  To get laid and then walk?  If you just want someone to jump, then find a woman who just wants to be jumped.  It would be dishonest to use these methods on a gullible woman or a woman who wants more than sex.  It makes you a pig, frankly.  And really, is it truly that difficult to find a woman who wants something just as casual as you?  If so, then you're looking in the wrong places.

Or do you want to start a relationship?  If so, then I say go for it with one word of caution.  Don't make yourself out to be something you aren't.  Don't start something that you can't maintain long term.  If you're using NLP on your girl in the beginning, then I would think you'd need to continue to use it for as long as you are with her.  For this reason, I'd say instead of perfecting NLP, perfect yourself.  Truly make yourself the kind of man a woman can be with, then you don't have to keep up any pretenses.  You just gotta be yourself.

To all,
Men also have lots of social programming. 

Women like GOOD sex, not just any sex.   

Paying attention to a woman to learn her attraction process is common sense, and I can't believe that you guys really need to pay someone money to tell you that.  Women say this all the time, "He doesn't listen, he doesn't pay attention, he doesn't know me."  It's even more common for a guy to pay attention at the beginning of a relationship, then stop after the relationship becomes comfortable.  He stops trying.  Don't do that!  Don't stop trying, don't stop paying attention.  Keep in mind, also, that attraction for a woman can be about more than just your looks or physique.

I really need more women in on this discussion.

(Edited by Ms. Deanna Delancey on 9/27, 4:49pm)




Post 35

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 4:39pmSanction this postReply
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DD, please share with us exactly with how many people a person ought to sleep -- or even just date -- before settling on one particular ideal.

The attitude in the quote is the right attitude to adopt regardless of the quantity of lovers one has over a lifetime, in my judgment.

Speaking of that, recall that Dagny practiced serial monogamy with three worthy men in Atlas Shrugged while Dominique had her own colorful sexual history in The Fountainhead.  I have only seen the film We the Living but Kira certainly played her way concurrently with two men in that story.  In fact, Anthem depicts the only lifelong monogamous central love story in the whole lot of Ayn Rand fiction as far as I can tell.

To talk sensibly about when to respect or sneer regarding a person's love life, we would need to establish some standards of judgment.  As you noted earlier, courtesans select that career because they like sex a great deal.  Some people have lots of sex with lots of people for the same reason.  The difference, of course, is that whereas the courtesan-customer relationship is clearly defined, promiscuous relationships are not.  So the virtue of honesty has to play a key role there.

If you are saying that the promiscuous aspects of Speed Seduction are wrong because they degrade sex from lovemaking to pure hedonism, thus splitting soul from body, I would agree with you.  If you are saying that it is wrong for a man to measure his self-worth by the notches in his belt rather than the quality of his loving, I would definitely agree with you.  However, it might also be possible for the same type of serial monogamy depicted in Atlas Shrugged to happen at an accelerated rate with more people over a shorter duration per relationship using NLP.

So I need some clarification from you about why you consider Ross a "jerk."

You later wrote:

Paying attention to a woman to learn her attraction process is common sense, and I can't believe that you guys really need to pay someone money to tell you that.  Women say this all the time, "He doesn't listen, he doesn't pay attention, he doesn't know me."  It's even more common for a guy to pay attention at the beginning of a relationship, then stop after the relationship becomes comfortable.  He stops trying.  Don't do that!  Don't stop trying, don't stop paying attention.  Keep in mind, also, that attraction for a woman can be about more than just your looks or physique.

The material aims to help men to do exactly that.  They do not pay to be told to listen.  They pay to learn how to listen deeply and well.  Before you criticize them for doing that, take a look at the whole love instruction industry ranging from Barbara DeAngelis to John Gray and then evaluate Ross based on whether he helps men any more or less than those other folks.

If women want to complain that their men do not listen, will they now complain when they purchase instructions on how to listen so that the women feel fully understood, loved, valued and appreciated?  Knowledge is not innate but must be acquired through sense perception, identification, interpretation, validation and integration.  So I hope no woman here expects her man "just to know" how to induce those states in her.  He does not and cannot according to Objectivism.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 9/27, 4:59pm)




Post 36

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
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You're revealing a lot of yourself, Luke - what does your wife say to this?



Post 37

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
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NLP itself is quite interesting, but had I known who this Ross Jeffries person is before reading the quote, I would not have been so inclined to react positively.  What a jerk!  A man who arrives at this state naturally and actually lives his life this way is what I was responding to, not someone who manufactures an attitude in an attempt to bed as many women as possible.
It sounds like to me that you object to the fact that some men have actually studied this stuff and have developed these skills, while others have just acquired them "naturally." Do you object to all learning in this manner? Do you object to actors who take acting classes or auto mechanics who take classes, too? Do you only let mechanics who acquire their skills "naturally" work on your cars? Do you only like actors who are good actors "naturally"?

Just what is so wrong with working hard to acquire a skill that a person does not have "naturally"? Do you think such men should just remain virgins for the rest of their lives? Should they just let the "naturals" get all the women?

There is one guy on the Speed Seduction group who is in a wheelchair. Do you think it is easy for him to get girl friends? Is it his fault that he is in one? This guy found a tool that made it easier for him to get what he wants. I commend him for that. He is actually quite satisfied with what he has learned, and so are the women.




Post 38

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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I think intent is key.  What are your goals of seduction?  To get laid and then walk?  If you just want someone to jump, then find a woman who just wants to be jumped.
This is what some men look for. This is what some women want. I know a divorced guy who goes out to bars. He says he does better when he wears his wedding ring. That says a lot about the women. I know another guy who told me that he went to a gay bar as an experiment. Women treated him differently there. That also says a whole lot about women.
Or do you want to start a relationship?  If so, then I say go for it with one word of caution.  Don't make yourself out to be something you aren't.
Right now, I am a man who does not have a relationship. I want to have one. Therefore, I am going to become someone that I currently am not. People are always changing and making themselves out to be something.
Don't start something that you can't maintain long term.  If you're using NLP on your girl in the beginning, then I would think you'd need to continue to use it for as long as you are with her.
A lot of men have come to the conclusion that any long-term happiness with a woman is nearly impossible. I'm not sure how I feel about this one.

One of my cousins had a wife who decided to become a whore and throw away 30 years of marriage. As a result of this, their three daughters (all grown and out of the house) actually did not speak to her for a couple years. It was quite disappointing because they had seemed like one of the healthier and happier couples that I knew.
For this reason, I'd say instead of perfecting NLP, perfect yourself.
But isn't this making yourself out to be something that you are not. Perfecting yourself means trying to be something--doesn't it?
Truly make yourself the kind of man a woman can be with, then you don't have to keep up any pretenses.
That is exactly what Ross Jeffries is doing.
You just gotta be yourself.
One guy had a good response to this one: "I've been myself my whole life. What has it gotten me?"
Keep in mind, also, that attraction for a woman can be about more than just your looks or physique.
Ross would agree with that. I do as well.






Post 39

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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If you are saying that the promiscuous aspects of Speed Seduction are wrong because they degrade sex from lovemaking to pure hedonism, thus splitting soul from body, I would agree with you.  If you are saying that it is wrong for a man to measure his self-worth by the notches in his belt rather than the quality of his loving, I would definitely agree with you.

Many of the men who buy SS are not like this. They are all men who simply want more power and choice in their relationships and interactions with women. They do want quality women.

That's what has happened for me. The quality of women has improved a lot.




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