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Post 120

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 5:08pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

First of all, please forgive me for addressing you as "John." I'm getting old and senile, and names are the first thing to go. :)

You write,
We can be sure that only a finite number of motions, events, may occur given a finite number of entities and a finite duration. We do not have to surrender to ‘there is no answer’ just because motion is relative to a frame of reference. From the assumption that the number of entities is finite, we know that a finite number of observers exist and therefore a finite number of frames of reference. Different observers will record fewer or more motions, but we can still be sure that if we add up all their reports, we will get a finite number.
The problem is, you're trying to say that within a finite period of time, there is a specific number of events in the universe, and you can't say that. Since motion is relative to a frame of reference, the best you can do is to say that within a finite time and from a particular frame of reference, there is a specific number of events. But you can't add the numbers from different frames of reference, because you'd be adding incommensurables. That which is in motion from one frame of reference is not in motion from another, so you couldn't add the two motions or events, unless both were considered to be events from a third frame of reference. Accordingly, in order for there to be a specific number of events in the entire universe, they would have to be events relative to a frame of reference outside the universe, and there is none, since nothing exists outside the universe.
Now that all the dust has cleared, I would have to say that I haven’t changed my views on infinity at all.
Okay. Then please explain to me how there can be an infinite number of events in the universe, if there is no such thing as a number that is actually infinite.

- Bill


Post 121

Sunday, April 8, 2007 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Don’t sweat “John,” nothing to forgive.

Let me approach this from a different angle. You have affirmed your position that existence always was, it had no start.

Today, the entities that compose the universe are in motion relative to one another (some are NOT in motion relative to others, but some ARE.) This fact gives rise to the concept of time.

Would you accept a state of existence in the past when there was no motion?

In post 96 you wrote: “I don't take a position on what form existence took prior to the Big Bang, although I don't think it makes sense to say that it was static. Static relative to what?”

To clarify, I mean no motion of any of the fundamental entities relative to each other. The position of each would be static relative to all of the others’. There would be no frame of reference from which anything would be said to be moving.

Could you accept that?

A state of existence in the past when there was no motion of the constitutive entities would be an existence without motions, and therefore, without time.

If you could accept that, then I can see an “out” for you—you can say that existence always was, and time began alongside motions.

If you cannot accept a state of existence in the past when there was no motion, then I see no way out for you. You face an infinite regress of motions—an infinitude of events that have already actually occurred.


Post 122

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 5:08amSanction this postReply
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If you cannot accept a state of existence in the past when there was no motion, then I see no way out for you. You face an infinite regress of motions—an infinitude of events that have already actually occurred.


But to exist IS to have motion - it is an integral aspect of existing.... because it is in the nature of being...

The universe, by its nature, is dynamic - the static does not and cannot exist other than as a momentary 'slice' of reality....

(Edited by robert malcom on 4/09, 5:12am)


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