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Post 120

Saturday, March 8, 2014 - 6:58pmSanction this postReply
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Everyone manipulates - all social interactions affect other people - the question is whether you are doing it for a noble cause or a rotten one.



Post 121

Saturday, March 8, 2014 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

 

Manipulation is just one form of social interaction - just one way in which people work at effecting other people.  And it isn't so much about the ends being noble or rotten (they might be either).  It is more about the means by which the interaction is put in play.  Here is the description from Wikipedia:

Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.  By advancing the interests of the manipulator, often at another's expense, such methods could be considered exploitative, abusive, devious, and deceptive. 

Reading that makes it obvious that there are diffferent kinds of manipulation and that not everyone engages in the kind of social interaction that is dishonest.



Post 122

Saturday, March 8, 2014 - 11:06pmSanction this postReply
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I post under Jules Troy It was my first and middle name I was born with.  I am adopted my real name is Steve but I let everyone know off the hop.  Also I did not want to have the double Steve thing going on at the forum.



Post 123

Saturday, March 8, 2014 - 11:43pmSanction this postReply
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The very idea of double Steves would drive some people screaming for the exits :-)



Post 124

Sunday, March 9, 2014 - 5:32amSanction this postReply
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Everyone manipulates - all social interactions affect other people - the question is whether you are doing it for a noble cause or a rotten one.

 

Fortunately we can rely on the Emperors of Noble to inform we mere peers which is which. 

 

Again, my sincerest regrets that there is no telethon for paternalistic megalomania.    There could be a massive Labor Day appeal to help "Cass's Kids."

 

regards,
Fred



Post 125

Sunday, March 9, 2014 - 6:58amSanction this postReply
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Steve - I'm using a slightly different definition of the term that doesn't carry all the negative connotations of your definition. Or if you prefer to use that definition, I'm saying that operating within the subset of manipulation that is not at others' expense is a normal and ethical component of all social interaction. It's not all there is to human behavior, but it's a consistent undercurrent, and without it, we wouldn't be able to function in a complex society. We rarely, if ever, announce our true thoughts and intentions to others with 100% honesty, and doing so would be a quick way to social self-destruction.



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Post 126

Sunday, March 9, 2014 - 8:33amSanction this postReply
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"We rarely, if ever, announce our true thoughts and intentions to others with 100% honesty, and doing so would be a quick way to social self-destruction."

 

We cannot model the nuance of meaning for a single word in our minds to model exactly the meaning of that word in another mind.  No more than the models in our minds of nature exactly model the complexity of the universe.  The best we can hope for in communications with others is an impression of some aspect of reality and goodwill.  Perhaps goodwill is the most important.



Post 127

Sunday, March 9, 2014 - 1:10pmSanction this postReply
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Mike wrote:

We cannot model the nuance of meaning for a single word in our minds to model exactly the meaning of that word in another mind. No more than the models in our minds of nature exactly model the complexity of the universe. The best we can hope for in communications with others is an impression of some aspect of reality and goodwill. Perhaps goodwill is the most important.

That is well worth repeating and examining. Even though we cannot model exactly in our mind, what another had in their mind the importance will be in the agreement on the key points - the essence. And if we are of good will, then we are attempting to communicate honestly. Under that kind of umbrella we can keep trying, and our back and forth will bring adequate success in real communication. Without goodwill, the intent is to hide some aspect of reality and instead of communicate, to miscommunicate in that area. (I would also argue that it is strongly in our self-interest to hold tightly to honesty and goodwill as personal standards).

--------------

 

What I see as so important is the difference between these two views:

 

One viewpoint acknowledges that nuances (or honest mistakes as well) can lead to ambiguities in communications and result in less than perfect shared understandings (but that view also says that goodwill and patience can continue to work at diminishing those imperfections - and it doesn't matter that perfection only requires a shared understanding of the points essential to the context, not to the tiniest nuance.

 

The other view starts with the fact that we often want to influence others towards our positions (which by itself is benign and true), but goes on to ignore or downplay that there are differences between doing so without goodwill or honesty, versus the psychological and ethical position of not seeking control or influence in any instance where dishonesty is used.  This view also takes the idea that we wish to hold some aspects of our lives as private, to hold some thoughts to ourselves, perhaps just to avoid hurting someone's feelings when it isn't necessary (which is also benign and acceptable), and somehow makes those motives stand up as if they were a justification for dishonesty used to gain control of some kind. And dishonesty includes refusing to look at flawed arguments used because they might be effective.

----------------

 

Psychological aspects of manipulation involving dishonesty often include one or more of the following:

  • a need to advance their own purposes and personal gain even if it involves being dishonest or unethical.
  • a strong need to attain feelings of power and superiority in relationships with others (pseudo-self-esteem)
  • a want and need to feel in control (aka. control freak) as a constant drive to minimize insecurity or anxiety
  • a desire to gain a feeling of power over others in order to increase psuedo-self-esteem
  • boredom, or growing tired of his/her surroundings, seeing it as a game more than hurting others
  • a rationalization that only fools don't manipulate others, or that others simply won't admit it's what they do.
  • a lack of empathy for others, or an inability to empathize (some degree of narcissim or sociopothy)
  • use of manipulation as a kind of passive aggresive way to vent hidden anger
  • a dislike for others that results in a degree of joy at seeing them bested

    [Taken from Wikipedia article on psychological manipulation, but modified and added to.]


Post 128

Sunday, March 9, 2014 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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Someone on OL isn't as oblivious as its owner re: Ms. Matthews:

 

"Eva Matthews" by Brant Gaede

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14147&hl=

 

Even in the age of Wikipedia, it is impossible that Eva Mathews is a 20yo college student.

--Brant
too much about too much and college students surely prefer other venues and surely need all the time they can get to study for up to 18 course hours a semester--or what have you

she hasn't posted on R of R since March 2, the date Joe Rowlands put her into Dissent, and she tells us she was oblivious to what Joe did?

starting in very late December, she put up over 400 posts there, what college student cares about that kind of thing or has the time?

I don't think she's Victor Pross except for her indefatigable energy 

 

 

If Eva is who "she" says she is, I'll eat my hat.

 

The most technophobic girl I ever knew has 20 Google hits to her name. "Eva Matthews" from Atlanta, GA returns zero, aside from Objectivist forums. She's a ghost.



Post 129

Sunday, March 9, 2014 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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Maybe she's Hank Jones, once-famous Objectivist troll in the 90s.

 

(Edited by Peter Reidy on 3/09, 7:51pm)



Post 130

Monday, March 10, 2014 - 5:51amSanction this postReply
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It's obvious "Eva" is trolling the forums. She just launched into a full-blown tirade against Rand over on OL. She suckered MSK into buying her story, but as I predicted, her lectures interfered with his own, and when she one-upped him on his favorite topic of Kahneman, the two quickly had a falling out.

 

I don't know who "Eva" is, but her back story is a total fabrication. She sounds more like a robot sent back through time trying to impersonate a college student than any actual 20-year-old I've ever known. There is no such thing as a "campus brat," and nobody would bankroll in advance the doctoral social-science research of somebody who hasn't even finished college yet. She's also implied she killed a man who tried to rape her - but her story changes and makes little sense.

 

It's all a bunch of nonsense. In all likelihood a 40+ man just screwing with the Objectivist community for laughs.

 

If I were moderator, I'd ask her to privately verify her identity through some sort of independent link or reference. Of course we all know she can't. 

 

 



Post 131

Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 8:06amSanction this postReply
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Robert:

 

Others here, via PM, speculated that immediately, but in the end, in this medium, how much does it matter, except to whoever Eva is?    It's totally fine if a sockpuppet presents ideas so easily shredded, or if a 20 yr old second year psych major from Hotlanta spouts same.   It might make a difference to some here, I don't know, and I don't know why it would, except possibly to the admins.    

 

Our only means of interaction here are these words.

 

That many of Eva's are indistiinguishable from what is auto generated by surprisingly few lines of code by things like the Postmodern generator is just revealing, no matter who Eva is or isn't, or what kind of sad high fives she is getting from "The Lit Department."     Which is sadder?   A 'Lit Department' at her beck and call to review the stream of conciousness bon mos dashed out here as part of the self-entertainment of a barbarian engineer engaged in cheap self therapy on the in-ter-net, complete with beer can next to his keyboard, or, her imagining same?    A complete toss up. Sad either way.   Could matter only to 'Eva.'

 

 

 

 



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Post 132

Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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Eva was a macademia nut. 

 

Sam



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Post 133

Friday, March 14, 2014 - 7:12amSanction this postReply
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LOL - Eva is now in moderation on Objectivist Living. I knew she and The Great One would hit it off.



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Post 134

Friday, March 14, 2014 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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Scherk - You get a "fair shake" on OL as long as you kiss the ass of the Great One, which most of the commenters there accept without protest. Not my style, sorry. Try tossing his abuse back at him sometime and see how long you last. For all her faults, Eva was right about that much - you take Michael's shit and ask for seconds or you get the axe on OL. Show me what rule I ever violated.



Post 135

Friday, March 14, 2014 - 11:05pmSanction this postReply
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For Galt's sake stop being such a f ing baby.

Definition of pathetic: Being kicked out of The swamp.

Definition of beyond pathetic: Whining  and crying about it so much that you drive even ME nuts.  Grow some balls man and shut up about it.  MSK did you a favor now do something constructive.

 

Just so you know if I for one got kicked off of a forum I wouldn't go crying like a bloody school girl on another forum for the entire world to see how much of a pussy I am.(no offence to school girls intended).  

 

I first read about and adopted Objectivist principles in 1987-88.  I was not aware of an "Objectivist" movement.  I just went about my life knowing  what I learned and used it to better myself.  None of my friends were "into philosophy" so I did not talk about it, I just usedddddd itttttt.   I only discovered RoR a couple years ago.

 

So if the Internet went poof or these sites went dead ( as Linz just pulled his plug) life would go on and so would I.

 

Perhaps this will help.

http://www.pophangover.com/4641/the-official-internet-butthurt-complaint-form/

 



Post 136

Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 5:46amSanction this postReply
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Jules - I don't need your pointers, brah. For somebody above the fray, you sure do like jumping in and doling out unsolicited advice. Over and over again. Not deaf, you know.

 

I'm not "crying" or "whining." It's endearing how you interpret the entire range of action and emotion on the Neanderthal level, but you're badly misunderstanding what's going on here.

 

Know why all politicians negatively campaign even though nobody likes it? Because it works.



Post 137

Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 5:59amSanction this postReply
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So stop talking about MSK and your disgrundled hissy fits of his wrongdoings to you on this forum "brah".  No one bloody well cares as we are all well aware of the nature of MSK good and bad.  



Post 138

Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 6:11amSanction this postReply
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Jules - My objective is not to be liked, duuude. Start questioning premises, Spicoli.



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Post 139

Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 6:57amSanction this postReply
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Well at least you got something right Mr. Haaaaanddd!

Oh and I understand perfectly well what you are "doing" you are acting in a malicious manner that is not objectivist and is not only sick but immoral.  At least in my "dim Neanderthal eyes".

Kinda stalkerish in a pathological kind of way.

 

 

(Edited by Jules Troy on 3/15, 7:14am)



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