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Post 20

Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 9:12pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,
... the individual should be willing to sacrifice others to himself if it proves necessary for his own well-being.
But this statement, while true, is uninformative. What gives it its truth is the broad truth that individuals should be willing to do whatever it is that proves necessary for their own well-being. Think of the opposite. Think about individuals who were unwilling to do whatever it is that proves necessary for their own well-being. They wouldn't thrive. They'd act -- and therefore, they'd be -- immoral. Doing what proves necessary for your own well-being -- if you've made the choice to live -- becomes a moral obligation of sorts.

However, I can think of at least three other ideas--which are commonly thought of as being Objectivist--which would seem to me to be hard to reconcile with such a notion. Those ideas are:
1.)That parents are obligated to take care of/look after their children until they reach adulthood.
2.)That such needs can only arise in emergency situations.
and,
3.)That lassez-faire capitalism is the political system most geared to man's proper survival.

The reason I think it would be hard to reconcile the idea with #1 is that parents don't necessarily get something for themselves--in terms of their own flourishing--from raising their young.






But (with an assumption detailed below) the point you're making assumes that good behavior or good acts are those acts in which it is known -- in an omniscient sense of knowing -- that someone will get a benefit. You're saying that parents may get something for themselves -- in terms of their own flourishing -- from raising their young, but that they don't necessarily get something for themselves.

The point you're making "appeals" to omniscience as a standard. It calls into question all behavior involving probability (even when the odds are good). This makes your point, until strengthened, invalid or just real weak. When someone gets into the car to go to work (to make money for themselves), they don't necessarily get something for themselves. They may get in a car accident and die, for instance -- but that does not make driving to work immoral or unselfish.

It is still the right thing to do (because the odds are good), even if the outcome is not fully known in advance.

Now, you could be making an even-stronger statement, but that statement would be quite outlandish. The stronger statement that you could be making is that parenting isn't good for humans, i.e., that humans don't individually benefit from parenting -- even if they have calculated their hierarchy of values and found parenting to be a high value for them.

In this stronger way of wording it, you would be assuming that you can know not just what, in general, helps folks flourish (e.g., friends, knowledge, etc) -- but, specifically, that which cannot possibly help any folks flourish (i.e., parenting). It's a statement about human nature, no longer one about probability. I think it generous and right to assume that you meant the less-outlandish (probability) version already rebutted. Just let it be known if this is not the case.


The reason I think that #2 would be hard to reconcile with that idea is that I could, for instance, be better off if I, say, embezzled thousands of dollars from a company and got away with it than I could just relying on my own efforts alone...
But this statement hinges on a view of how to become "better off" that, for it's limited scope, does not integrate with Objectivism. Objectivism takes a bigger, deeper, and broader view of how to become "better off" as a human being. Aristotle was also quite good on this subtle point.

The short answer is that you don't really become better off by getting away with a crime (though you can appear "better off" on limited rubrics, such as a bank statement). One easily-understood reason is because part of being "better off" is being able to sleep well at night. Rand had a lot to say about the price, not just material, but the psychological price you pay for trying to fake reality (trying to get the unearned).


The reason I think that idea would be hard to r[e]concile with #3 is that lassez-faire would punish an individual for breaching other's rights, even if that breach was something that was necessary for his own well-being.
But this appeal to 'rights-breaching' is an appeal to the emergency situation. 

Before accepting it as valid, I'd have to examine court cases involving such "life-boat" scenarios regarding self-preservation in such dire consequences (such as a sinking life-boat) via mechanisms where someone had to die or be injured (e.g., thrown overboard) in order for another to live. I'm not sure if the law has punished folks for defending their lives in such zero-sum (somebody loses) emergencies, but they would have had to have done just that (or you'd be required to explain why they didn't) in order for your point to be valid.


Even still, the life-boat scenario -- due to it's infrequency -- is an awfully limited or poor rubric to use in order to evaluate whether selfishness integrates with capitalism or not. Again, Rand had a lot to say about that. Ultimately, it is an appeal to the absolutes of imagination (such as omniscience), where one can -- within the casual arena of one's own mind -- envision a situation where something wouldn't be good; even if that something is indeed a greater good for man (qua man) than any other 'something' known!

In the same vein, I can envision the existential happenstance of an unlikely, unintended scenario of a bird crapping on -- and thereby disfiguring -- the Mona Lisa, but that is not a good way to evaluate the robustness of the merit of art for man.

:-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/27, 9:18am)


Post 21

Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 11:50pmSanction this postReply
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I'm interested in a clarification regarding the statement that a person should be willing to sacrifice others. I'm a little surprised that this statement was made or agreed with, as I'm reasonably sure It goes against the grain of Objectivism, as defined by Ms. Rand. I don't have time to sift through the entirety of the thread. Could you please post quotations or your own original thinking that led to the belief that Objectivist ethics condoned sacrifice of any sort?

Post 22

Monday, July 27, 2009 - 4:59amSanction this postReply
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Ryan,

Christopher correctly called it Bill's statement, rather than a statement implied by Objectivism -- although he may be under the impression that Bill represents Objectivism.

Like I said above, the statement is tricky because of its truth, it's just that you cannot generalize from it -- even though that's what folks mean to do when they use it in argument. In order to generalize from it, you'd need to clarify the context wherein it really would be moral to sacrifice folks. Upon clarification, it turns out that the situations are so rare and odd as to be unimportant for the business of morality (as Rand had said about "emergencies" in general).

But I agree with your initial intellectual dismay: without such clarification, it can be intellectually dishonest to just make the statement and throw it out there as if it were a tenet of Objectivism.

Ed



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Post 23

Monday, July 27, 2009 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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Ed,
I dispute that the statement is true. Objectivism, to the best of my knowledge, never advocates sacrifice. Even in some sort of anomalous lifeboat situation. This would be assuming that we are using the working definition of sacrifice common to Objectivist writing, that sacrifice is giving up a greater value for a lesser. That is not what is happening in a lifeboat situation. What is happening is the applicability of morality and ethics is breaking down due to a unique series of events outside of anyone's control. All the proper and rational codes we should use to live together break down, but no sacrifice occurs.

Post 24

Monday, July 27, 2009 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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Ryan,

Excellent point about "sacrifice." In order for the statement to be true then (as I had claimed), the word "sacrifice" would have to be replaced with a phrase denoting "value." Here is such a re-statement:

... the individual should be willing to value himself over valuing others if it proves necessary for his own well-being.
Now, with this semantic 'kink' worked out of it -- would you agree, Ryan, that the statement is true via reference to the broad truth that folks must value that which proves necessary for their own well-being?

Christopher, would you agree regarding the "necessary truth" of this re-statement?

Ed


Post 25

Monday, July 27, 2009 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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Ed, That statement seems a little overdone. As I understand it, valuing oneself over others is necessary to one's well-being. Why the "if" statement? Why the "willing"? A person DOES value himself over others BECAUSE it is necessary for his own well-being.


It may also be necessary to define "well-being" a bit further as well, as it is a somewhat nebulous concept.

This is why lifeboat anomalies are poor examples to work out details of a daily living philosophy, I think.

Post 26

Monday, July 27, 2009 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Ed and Ryan,
First of all, I'm sorry that I didn't respond to you guys till now.  I was finally able to get on the internet this morning, but after I wrote my post and tried to submit it the browser I was using quit working... anyway, I may be a bit short here, as I already wrote a rather lengthy post this morning which never even ended up getting posted.
Ed,  I think that what you're asking me  (about the "necessary truth" of the statement you came up with) may be the very thing that eludes me.  If you're asking essentially whether we should be willing to sacrifice other's to ourselves if it proves necessary for our well-being, then I'd say that I have no idea what should be done if such a situation could occur. 
I wish I had some clues to offer on how to answer this issue, but I don't; indeed, I felt so utterly incapable of dealing with the issue that I pretty much finally decided that I need someone else to help me see what the correct solution is.


Post 27

Monday, July 27, 2009 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
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Asking for a sacrifice? Never, Christopher. Having to kill someone to save your own life? Only in the most anomalous situations imaginable, where ethics and morality appropriate for normal life break down.
Christopher, Do you see the difference between killing and a sacrifice?
Do you see the difference between a "lifeboat" and normal life?

Post 28

Monday, July 27, 2009 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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I'm glad Ryan asked.

I'm starting to think Christopher considers life a constant series of emergencies, which is just irrational.


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Post 29

Monday, July 27, 2009 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

If you're asking essentially whether we should be willing to sacrifice other's to ourselves if it proves necessary for our well-being, then I'd say that I have no idea what should be done if such a situation could occur. ... I need someone else to help me see what the correct solution is.
Perhaps it'd be better to pull back or away from the hypothesized scenario of "sacrificing" others for a moment.

If we did that, then we could more clearly focus on what it is that makes an action moral (without the distraction of other people). That's what Rand did in her 1963 essay "The Ethics of Emergencies". Now, if you object -- if you say that morality is always about 'other people' -- then we'd have to have another conversation before this one would make any sense to you. With that in mind, I'll start with a question:

Can you, Christopher, imagine morality having importance for someone stranded alone on a desert island?

Ed



Post 30

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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Ed,
In answer to you're question, I think that a man would very much need morality on a desert island.
I don't believe I view morality as being primarily social.  However, I can still see some possible problems with accepting that we should view it (moality) as hinging only on our own needs as well. 


Post 31

Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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How? What specific problems do you see?

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Post 32

Friday, August 7, 2009 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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Peikoff answers the question with which Cristopher began this thread about 12 minutes into his June 2, 2008 podcast, available here. He is appropriately dismissive of those who dislike the word.

Post 33

Monday, August 17, 2009 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
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Ryan,
I'm sorry I haven't been able to answer your question.  I moved about two weeks ago, and somewhere along the way my laptop was stolen.  I'm kind of getting over that still, but when I get another laptop I'll have more time to be online again.  For now, I'm using a computer at a library.
To answer your question, the problems I can see with viewing morality as being only a means to one's own welfare would include:
Parents would not always be morally obligated to take care of their children (They would only be so if it could be shown to be in their best interest to do so.)
People could use children (or other innocents) as human body-shields to avoid streams of flying bullets.
One could not risk his life if it proved necessary to save someone he deeply loved.
Although I don't claim to be able to prove that all of these would be bad, I think that most people would agree that at least most of these things would be unpalatable to basic, healthy human-nature.
I hope this sheds some light on where I'm coming from.... Another one that I forgot to add, above, is that if every person should always be only out for himself, then I don't think that we can continue to say that capitalism would be the best system for those who are innocent, but unfortunately severely disabled as well.  If I was severely disbled, for instance, then I would probably want to know that there was at least some type of government assistance available to me if other people didn't want to help me.  (Which they shouldn't if the premise that man should only be out for his own life is correct.)


Post 34

Monday, August 17, 2009 - 11:33amSanction this postReply
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You're missing the point - morality is to one's self as a primary, not the only, as secondary considerations are also involved, in an integrated, hierarchical manner...

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Post 35

Monday, August 17, 2009 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher, do you have any familiarity with Rand beyond the titles of her books? I mean, if you were curious enough to find this website weren't you curious enough to read Rand when you had her books in your hands? Your "concerns" about parents' obligations to children, how to take care of the disabled, whether one can risk one's life for some great value, and how blame is apportioned in war and whether one can let a criminal take one moral hostage (do what I demand or I will kill this child) is dealt with over and over and over. Your raising these issues here, yet again, is like a stale joke. The question with which you began this thread is answered in the introduction to the only book you are ever likely to read with the word "selfishness" in it. Do the work. Read The Virtue of Selfishness - in full - and then if you have a specific question about some formulation, ask for clarification.

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Post 36

Monday, August 17, 2009 - 5:58pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,
Ouch. Hope you find it.
Parents would not always be morally obligated to take care of their children (They would only be so if it could be shown to be in their best interest to do so.)
That scenario is certainly up for debate, but most Objectivists and people who seriously define themselves as such that I have met tend to believe a variation of the concept that parenthood is a voluntarily entered relationship that does impose obligations that a parent is morally obligated to fulfill. Such as protecting their child's health, well-being, and rights as well as serving as a reasonable steward of the child's rights. Until such a time as the child could reasonably be expected to do so for itself.

 
People could use children (or other innocents) as human body-shields to avoid streams of flying bullets.
Intentionally placing another in a harmful situation (natural or man-made) without their consent is assault. Initiation of force. Doing so with one's own child is covered above, assuming a person was so depraved that their child had no value to them.

One could not risk his life if it proved necessary to save someone he deeply loved.
Extensively covered in numerous Objectivist writings. It is possible to value something or someone so highly that life without it or them loses all value.

Another one that I forgot to add, above, is that if every person should always be only out for himself, then I don't think that we can continue to say that capitalism would be the best system for those who are innocent, but unfortunately severely disabled as well.  If I was severely disbled, for instance, then I would probably want to know that there was at least some type of government assistance available to me if other people didn't want to help me.  (Which they shouldn't if the premise that man should only be out for his own life is correct.)
First of all, Objectivism doesn't prohibit simple human benevolence or charity. It doesn't hold them as a moral duty. People have always been charitable toward each other and will continue to be so. See the statement on parenting above. It applies to assisting with one's children's disabilities as well, even if the disability is mental in nature and the child will never be mentally competent enough to act independently. This is one of the dangers of choosing to procreate. You also seem to be implying that Objectivism advocates having no interest in one's fellow man, which is incorrect. One should look to one's own interests, which includes adhereing to a moral heirarchy of values in one's life. There is nothing to say that an Objectivist can't love someone or value others for any number of reasons. This includes the simple valuation of a person as a human, and thus capable of mirroring ones own values (friendship), bringing value to one's life (trade and innovation), or simple similarity (In addition to loving me, I like things that remind me of me). Such things are the root of benevolence, and wither under the pathetic and vicious brawl for resources that occur when sacrificial morality holds sway. To my knowledge, No system that ever even seriously pretended to capitalism has ever advocated the wholesale abandonment and "removal" of undesireables, including the medically "unfit". Dictatorships and collectivist gov'ts (which you advocated) are infamous for it. Not to mention the scenario you mentioned borders on a lifeboat premis in nature. You would have to be severely crippled, one's parents would have to completely abandon their moral, and in a civilized society, legal responsibilities. The entirety of humanity would have to be completely without benevolence, you would have to present absolutely no value to anyone, unable to support oneself through intellectual work, and the entire medical establishment would have to have no interest in curing or preventing your condition in others. Such a scenario enters the realm of the ridiculous.

Atlas Shrugged
The Fountainhead
Answers
The Ayn Rand Lexicon
Virtue of Selfishness
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
The Voice of Reason
Objectivism: Philosophy of Ayn Rand (Dr. Peikoff, I highly recommend it along with his podcast)
An Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology <-----extremely difficult for me on first read
The Romantic Manifesto <----extremely difficult for me on first read.
Philosophy: Who Needs It
For the New Intellectual

Read in no particular order, should you have interest in such matters.





Post 37

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 10:33amSanction this postReply
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Ted,
First of all, I can't even believe I'm taking the time to respond to your message; this will be the last time I do so for this subject.
I know what Rand said about these things, yes.  However, what I'm saying is that if Rand advocated using your own life as your standard of right and wrong morality, then that basic premise would lead to completely different types of actions than the one's she advocated in contradiction to that premise   I do not myself know if by "man's life" as the standard she meant the individual agent's life, but if she did--and most "Objectivists" I speak to are of that assumption--then her then contradictory comments about how to always respecet the rights and lives of others wouldn't add up to crap.


Post 38

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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Ryan,
Is it your opinion that by "man's life", as the standard of morality, Rand meant the individual agent's life?  Or did she mean more than that?  The reason I ask this question is because if Rand was really arguing that the criterion of moral evaluation is the survival of the agent, qua man, then social relations are only moral if they involve doing what is best in them for yourself.  In other words, if what further's the agent's own life, qua man, is the standard of morality, then he must deal with others, socially, as is required for his own survival.
This is the crux of what I'm trying to get at.... what exactly is the fundamental moral rule for moral action according to Rand.  If we know how to interpret that rule, then deciding all these other issues should be easy enough.


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Post 39

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 11:42amSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

There are indeed many Objectivists that mistake the individual agent's life as the standard of value. But Rand was quite clear when she said man's life qua man was the standard - she referred to those properties common to all men. Our individual purposes, as individual agents, arise from our individual lives - but "individual purpose" is not the same as a standard of value that is put forth in a universal morality.

The individual must combine the context of his life, with the standard of value, to derive his purpose and then the appropriate actions. Just as an inventor would have to combine his desires and context with the principles of, say, physics, to arrive at purposeful action that will work.

I can value something differently than another as it fits my life because of my purposes, but I can still lay claim to a universal, rational morality because those principles are derived from what is common to all men.

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