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Post 40

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 11:55amSanction this postReply
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Steve,
Thanks for your comment.
I'm curious as to where Rand might have indicated such a meaning for "man's life"... Can you help me out by giving me a reference to one of her writings or something?


Post 41

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Chris, Steve has answered what you asked. Its an abstract. Man as Man. Not A Man as A Man vs Everything else. Peikoff's work has been and continues to be helpful to me regarding such questions.

Since you asked for some of Rand's words.

The standard of value of the Objectivist  ethics - the standard by which one judges what is good or evil - is man's life, or: that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is evil.

Since everything man needs has to be discovered by his own mind and produced by his own effort, the two essentials of the method of survival proper to a rational being are: thinking and productive work.
This is from the Ayn Rand lexicon, further attributed from there as the lexicon is a collection of quotes from various works. Note the use of abstract terms "man", not "A man, this man, you, me, one man I'm talking about from his own perspective, etc", but the abstract which applies to all concrete units under its meaning. If my goals and methods are consistent with what is proper to the life of a rational being, they are good. If they serve to negate, oppose or destroy what is proper to the life of a rational being, they are evil. A rational being. Not ME, necessarily. This is one reason (of many) why advocating the confiscation of other's lives and property is evil, even if I might personally benefit in the short term. Because my life is not the abstract standard of morality, but a concrete existent included under a broader abstract concept ("man" and the related "man's life") that is the standard of morality. For me to negate, destroy, or oppose that which is proper to the life of a rational being in ANY rational being is immoral according to that standard.


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Post 42

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

"The standard of value of the Objectivist ethics — the standard by which one judges what is good or evil—is man’s life, or: that which is required for man’s survival qua man." Ayn Rand “The Objectivist Ethics,” in The Virtue of Selfishness, page 23.

She goes on to make it clear that the standard is man's nature, not the individual man's life. Think about this... If we chose the individual's life, we would also have to choose the exact moment, since what I value (or is of benefit to my life right now) might not of value at a different time. It has to be the common denominator of all men to have an objective standard for all men at all times.

We have individual values, and there are values that are common to all men. When an individual man's chosen 'value' conflicts with a value common to all men, then the use of that standard allows us to have a universal standard. Without that approach, there could be nothing but cultural relativism taken to the extreme - each person claiming that anything he desired was moral because he desired it. It would negate the concept of morality.

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Post 43

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Christopher,

I think you'll find this Objectivist Ethics excerpt helpful as well:
The Objectivist ethics holds man’s life as the standard of value—and his own life as the ethical purpose of every individual man.

The difference between “standard” and “purpose” in this context is as follows: a “standard” is an abstract principle that serves as a measurement or gauge to guide a man’s choices in the achievement of a concrete, specific purpose. “That which is required for the survival of man qua man” is an abstract principle that applies to every individual man. The task of applying this principle to a concrete, specific purpose—the purpose of living a life proper to a rational being—belongs to every individual man, and the life he has to live is his own.

Man must choose his actions, values and goals by the standard of that which is proper to man—in order to achieve, maintain, fulfill and enjoy that ultimate value, that end in itself, which is his own life.
Perhaps you are getting hung up on the Objectivist notion that disregarding or plundering others runs contrary to human nature? Or perhaps you're of the mind (contra Objectivism) that the purpose of an individual's own life, to be fulfilled, need not be concordant with human nature? Just trying to see where you're comin' from.

Jordan


Post 44

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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However, what I'm saying is that if Rand advocated using your own life as your standard of right and wrong morality,
Wrong.  Give the publication and page number where Rand ever said an individuals life is the "standard of right and wrong?"

I'm curious as to where Rand might have indicated such a meaning for "man's life"... Can you help me out by giving me a reference to one of her writings or something?
It's everywhere in everything she wrote, but most explicitly in The Virtue of Selfishness. Why don't you know this?

The Objectivist ethic is a code for man QUA MAN. Are you trying to claim that human nature can't be identified? Or that human nature, at it's base, is diverse in every individual? Or that the human nature is evil at it's core? What's your point?  Morality, any morality, SHOULD offer a method to live to anyone who subscribes to it. What other purpose is there to any moral code?

It's about identifying what's required to live. Not just what's required for you to live.

If you're looking for a rule book, join a cult. Objectivism can't help you.


Post 45

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 5:19pmSanction this postReply
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True - the moral is the UNDERSTOOD, not the commanded...

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Post 46

Wednesday, August 19, 2009 - 7:09pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

Folks have been helpful in this thread and folks have become frustrated with you. Please understand that the frustration on the part of some of us is that we have a modicum of expertise with regard to Objectivism and so when you say things like:

I know what Rand said about these things, yes.  However, what I'm saying is that if Rand advocated using your own life as your standard of right and wrong morality, then that basic premise would lead to completely different types of actions ...
... then the immediate reaction is to view you as either naive or dishonest (or "willfully-naive" which is another form of dishonesty). In case you're interested in continued engagement but with less friction, here is a very helpful link to peruse:

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/selfishness.html

Ed


Post 47

Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
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I have interpreted Ayn's message to be that she recommends that I define my own self.   That I should not be selfless.   

For example as I have probably already told you and often tell others that because I am a "selfish greedy capitalist" I have not applied for social security and never will.   

But I may be confusing Rand and Szasz on this issue.  

"In the animal kingdom, the rule is:

eat or be eaten;

in the human kingdom:

define or be defined."

  

Thomas Szasz, libertarian psychiatrist   http://www.szasz.com

"The Untamed Tongue A Dissenting Dictionary" page 55.
First printing 1990 by Open Court Publishing Company.


Post 48

Friday, September 18, 2009 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,
Thanks very much for your comment, for your understanding, and for the link you recommeneded; I found two passages from that link especially helpful on this issue. 
P.S.  I want you to know that I really WAS confused; I think, personally, that saying something like "Man's life is the standard of morality" is confusing, because I cannot really see clearly what the standard being talked about IS.  (This has nothing to do with my confusion over man's nature or over the nature of life).   I know that Objectivists would feel differerently, and that is fine, but I am a bit offended, personally, that they would accuse me of something wrong in this issue.  (I also know that you might not really sympathize with my posts on this thread, but I thank you for your comment anyway.)
Please excuse me for writing this really quickly, and for perhaps not writing it to well; I have to leave in just a few minutes, and am currently really busy..... Thanks again:)


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Post 49

Friday, September 18, 2009 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,

You're welcome. Regarding the possibility that I may only feign sympathy (with your posts on this thread), I will sympathize with your posts on this thread because justice demands that (that people and things get treated as they are or deserve) -- and I advocate justice.

Online, there is always the possibility that someone is "playing" you or toying with you for kicks. The asynchronous communication in a forum also makes things choppy. Trust is hard to procure. I give folks about 2 chances to answer for unseemly behavior. Sometimes -- oftentimes -- it's a simple misunderstanding fueled by online defensiveness and the asynchronisity thing.

There's something behind Rand's words, something that goes beyond literal interpretation. It's her vision of man as hero and of the universe as benevolent. There's so much harmony, so much justice ... and beauty. Her philosophy isn't a dry formula or an irrelevant fantasy -- it's a marriage of consciousness with existence ... with reality. A reconciliation of mind, body, and spirit.

Ed


Post 50

Monday, October 26, 2009 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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You wrote the following:
"There's something behind Rand's words, something that goes beyond literal interpretation. It's her vision of man as hero and of the universe as benevolent. There's so much harmony, so much justice ... and beauty. Her philosophy isn't a dry formula or an irrelevant fantasy -- it's a marriage of consciousness with existence ... with reality. A reconciliation of mind, body, and spirit."
You summed up many of my thoughts with that statement.
I think this is part of why I struggle with this philosophy so much.  There is SO MUCH beauty in some of its ideas; I just wonder sometimes if the ideas that seem to me so beautiful in it are also TRUE.
The idea that there are no conflicts of interests between rational men for example is part of a beautiful world view.  So is the idea that you can reconcile the two notions of a parent naturally being obligated to his child, and the idea that each individual must live for his own sake. 
Perhaps (from my perspective), Rand needed so desperately to have a view of the world which was positive (given where she grew up, etc...) that she wasn't careful enough about some of the details of her philosophy being accurate.  This is just a guess, and I hope that I'm NOT right.  I have tried to see if I could reconcile some of her ideas with one another, and even to accept her philosophy so many times... not just because I want her ideas to be true, but becasue I think that she is actually closer to the truth in philosophy than I expect anyone else ever will be.
Thanks for your comments.
--Chris


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Post 51

Monday, October 26, 2009 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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Ooooh, no - not letting this slip by:

Perhaps (from my perspective), Rand needed so desperately to have a view of the world which was positive (given where she grew up, etc...) that she wasn't careful enough about some of the details of her philosophy being accurate. 

Such as?


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Post 52

Monday, October 26, 2009 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Teresa. Let's leave out the vague criticisms of Objectivism Chris. Objectivism is not just a 'beautiful' philosophy, it's also a particularly useful and practical one. That is what philosophy should be, not just some exercise in intellectual masturbation but something that should allow you to enrich your life in a tangible way. If you are aware of a philosophy that's better, I'm willing to listen.



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Post 53

Monday, October 26, 2009 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher, you said, "The idea that there are no conflicts of interests between rational men for example is part of a beautiful world view. So is the idea that you can reconcile the two notions of a parent naturally being obligated to his child, and the idea that each individual must live for his own sake."

An individual is obligated to pay his mortgage payments and that obligation does not reduce that individual's capacity or ability to live for his own sake. The reason being that a world where contracts are workable is a net benefit over a world where they are not observed. Just as a world where a fair, universal ethical system is observed is of net value over a world where one is not. And it would be illogical to ask for something called a right, that is not universal since it would not really be a right. Add to that the facts that we humans must make choices, and often in circumstances where it isn't always possible to change our minds later - not without paying expensive prices. All of this isn't a flaw in an ethical system that won't let us have our cake and eat it to, but rather a metaphysical fact. (I like that old Spanish proverb: "God said, 'Take what you want... then pay for it.'")

Sometimes we rule out the existence of a conflict in what appears to be a pragmatic fashion. Like saying my right to wave my hands about ends just short of where your nose happens to be. That does not deprive me of the ability to enjoy unfettered freedom, and it does not constitute a conflict of interests between the two of us, since we both have the same rights regarding hand waving and we both enjoy the same protection for our respective noses.

Christopher, do you have any other examples that feel might fall into the category of possible conflicts of interest? Or, any examples of where you think she wasn't careful enough regarding the details of her philosophy being accurate.

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Post 54

Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 7:12pmSanction this postReply
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I don't understand the problems you're having. The only time it is ever justified to sacrifice another to oneself is in the case of a dire life-and-death emergency. In that context, every other consideration is of secondary importance.

Bill, this is the exception that can be twisted to swallow the rule. One you've conceded that it is moral to sacrifice others for one's sake given exigent enough circumstances, you've handed collectivists the slippery slope that leads to what they've done in this country, where they apply it to almost as exigent circumstances as you would admit to -- and then to slightly less exigent circumtances -- gradually leading to the free-for-all of redistributionism that is the hallmark of modern liberalism.

I don't know the answer to this -- I certainly would try to save my life in a dire emergency, even at the expense of strangers -- but I'm not convinced that such behavior is moral, just understandable.

For example, the health care "reform" they are debating in Congress would mean that at least some incompetent and stupid people would have their lives saved due medical procedures performed and paid for by seized money that they are simply incapable of obtaining for themselves. Never mind that most people would be worst off -- the point is that for these people, this bill would save their lives, at the expense of harming most other people.

For example, about 5% of the U.S. population has an IQ of around 75 or lower, according to the following chart, a level of intelligence that would make it difficult to arrange for and finance even the most basic medical care.

http://www.iqscorenow.com/Images/iq_bell_curve.gif

And so if you posit that under dire enough life and death circumstances it becomes moral for an individual to do whatever it takes to survive, you've just conceded that at least for some people, this legislation is morally justified.


Post 55

Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 7:49pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

I'd argue still that there is a marked difference between "is" and "might" when discussing "in danger". Therefore I don't think your explanation works.

jt

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Post 56

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 4:25amSanction this postReply
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Chris,

Others have chimed in with good questions. Let me be more exacting.

The idea that there are no conflicts of interests between rational men for example is part of a beautiful world view. 
Steve gave 2 good examples (mortgage payments & hand waving) where your interests were best served by following a moral prescription which included the interests of others. If you have a counter-example besides parent-child relations (below), please bring it up.

On parent-child relations

So is the idea that you can reconcile the two notions of a parent naturally being obligated to his child, and the idea that each individual must live for his own sake. 
Just as there are bad folks who enter into contracts (and transgress in some way), so there are bad folks who become parents. Some of these parents mistreat or neglect their children. From the outside, one might explain the behavior of the bad parents as "selfish" -- but this is not a philosophically-mature view of selfishness. For details, see the (Ayn Rand) Lexicon link that I provided above.

Let's say that a parent likes to watch football games, and that an infant child in the other room becomes hungry and cries. The "selfish" (bad) parent might just continue to watch the football game, closing the door on the crying infant to reduce the noise -- instead of leaving the television set in order to feed the child. In ignoring the child for the game, the parent is following a whimsical desire (a 'brute' or 'raw' feeling).

The parent is practicing behavior most-commonly associated with being "selfish" -- but, as the following Lexicon quotes show, this is wrong:

...the values required for human survival—not the values produced by the desires, the emotions, the “aspirations,” the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational brutes...
Recap:
It's not truly selfish (selfish in a good way) to have values that conflict with human survival. Folks who do are being less human than they can be, less moral than they can be. Humans sometimes choose to live on an "animal" level of existence (rather than a human level). The truly selfish man is rational and aligns his values not with whimsical desires (like animals), but with a "human" kind of survival. Here is Rand making this very point:

There is a fundamental moral difference between a man who sees his self-interest in production and a man who sees it in robbery. The evil of a robber does not lie in the fact that he pursues his own interests, but in what he regards as to his own interest; not in the fact that he pursues his values, but in what he chose to value; not in the fact that he wants to live, but in the fact that he wants to live on a subhuman level ...
And:

This is said as a warning against the kind of “Nietzschean egoists” who, in fact, are a product of the altruist morality and represent the other side of the altruist coin: the men who believe that any action, regardless of its nature, is good if it is intended for one’s own benefit. Just as the satisfaction of the irrational desires of others is not a criterion of moral value, neither is the satisfaction of one’s own irrational desires. Morality is not a contest of whims . . . .

A similar type of error is committed by the man who declares that since man must be guided by his own independent judgment, any action he chooses to take is moral if he chooses it. One’s own independent judgment is the means by which one must choose one’s actions, but it is not a moral criterion nor a moral validation: only reference to a demonstrable principle can validate one’s choices.

Just as man cannot survive by any random means, but must discover and practice the principles which his survival requires, so man’s self-interest cannot be determined by blind desires or random whims, but must be discovered and achieved by the guidance of rational principles.



So the answer to your parent-child question is that there's no conflict between a parent's selfishness and the care of a child. The parents who mistreat or neglect their children aren't being selfish in the mature sense -- they aren't even looking after their own interests very well. So, not being truly selfish in the first place, these examples (of parents neglecting children) do not give rise to the question that you asked.


It only appears like a paradox (for a parent to care for a child) when one doesn't yet understand the correct view of human selfishness -- i.e., what living "for your own sake" really means. When you understand what it means for you (a human) to live for your own sake, then this paradox dissolves.

Ed

Related:
An essay I wrote about human happiness

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/28, 4:34am)


Post 57

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 1:17pmSanction this postReply
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I'd argue still that there is a marked difference between "is" and "might" when discussing "in danger". Therefore I don't think your explanation works.

Jay, not sure I understand what you are getting at here. Perhaps you could rephrase.

My point is that in a nation of 300 million or so people, there are going to be many millions of people who are intellectually incapable of providing for health care for themselves, without either charity, or government seizure of funds from the more competent for redistribution. For example, 2% of the U.S. population -- 6 million people -- have an IQ below 70, according to this chart:

http://www.geniusdv.com/news_and_tutorials/2009/06/28/iq_bell_curve.gif

If you expand the level to an IQ of 75 or so, you're up to about 15 million people who are arguably incapable of taking care of some of their most basic needs without assistance, much less doing higher level stuff like obtaining health insurance or saving enough money to pay out of pocket for major medical expenses.

And, it is a certainty that tens if not hundreds of thousands of such intellectually challenged people, every year, will encounter medical problems that, if not treated by doctors, will kill them.

And so, if you concede that it is moral to do whatever it takes to stay alive, then you have conceded that every one of these millions of people have a moral right to a claim on our lives. We're not talking about rare, isolated lifeboat instances that almost never occur, we're talking about a routine, ongoing claim by a substantial chunk of the citizenry.

And, if you further admit that "doing whatever it takes to stay alive" is moral, doesn't that mean that for millions of people it is moral to support socialized medicine, because that is the viable political alternative at hand right now?

And, it is not just the intellectually challenged who could argue that it is a matter of life and death that they make a claim on our lives, a right to force us to sacrifice.

Most of the people who post here do not see a representative cross section of the citizenry at close range. We tend to think that the highly intelligent and successful people that we surround ourselves with and interact with are a somewhat representative sample of the population, when in fact if you're intelligent enough to be reading this, you're likely to spend most if not all of your time around people on the far tail of the bell curve for the population.

I ran for political office once, and visited every single residence that could be approached. It was an eye-opening experience seeing what average actually means.

If you are advancing a different argument, please clarify so I can understand your POV, and see whether I agree or not.

Post 58

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 1:34pmSanction this postReply
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Ed -- good post #56. Sanctioned it.

I have a minor quibble, in that selfish interests vary from person to person depending on the values they hold. Yes, it can be very selfish, in the Objectivist sense of the word, to take care of one's children. That is, if those are your values, than you serve your enlightened self-interests by doing things to help your children.

But, values vary. Most of my siblings, for example, are childless. They have chosen to not take on the responsibility of child-rearing. At least one of them chose to abort a child when she accidentally got pregnant. Is any of that a sacrifice on their part, or is that a case of them following their values of not wanting children? I would argue the latter.

A more difficult question which I would welcome feedback on:

The philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau, is famous for abandoning his own children at the door of a foundling asylum, which for most such children of that time was a death sentence. From an Objectivist standpoint, was that a sacrifice he made, or the pursuit of a higher value, namely the creation of his philosophical work, which would have been impeded if he had to divert resources to taking care of his children?

Similarly, is it a sacrifice, or is it the pursuit of a higher value, of someone like my sister to get an abortion so she could continue to enjoy a more luxurious lifestyle? Is that essentially any different than what Rousseau did?

Post 59

Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 1:46pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, interesting post #42: We have individual values, and there are values that are common to all men. When an individual man's chosen 'value' conflicts with a value common to all men, then the use of that standard allows us to have a universal standard. Without that approach, there could be nothing but cultural relativism taken to the extreme - each person claiming that anything he desired was moral because he desired it. It would negate the concept of morality.

I'm not entirely convinced of your point here. If you, as an individual, hold a value different than others hold, then by definition that is not a value "common to all men". It may be a value common to the overwhelming majority of people, but certainly not to 100.0000% of people.

And, so what threshhold percentage of other people must hold those values before your values become immoral simply because they are different? 80%? 90%? 99.9%? Is Objectivism immoral because perhaps 95% or even 99% of the population disagrees with the core principle of selfishness and non-sacrifice being the moral standard? Can something change from being immoral to being moral if enough people change their mind about it? Is morality something that can be decided democratically?

I would argue that morality -- values -- have to be based on a set of core principles, even if that conflicts with virtually everyone else's notions.

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