About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 13Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 260

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 7:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert,

Objectivism doesn't say that people are necessarily responsible morally for errors of knowledge or for errors of reasoning. It simply says that they are morally responsible for choosing to focus their minds when they know they should. Reason is the proper method for arriving at knowledge, but it isn't always obvious how best to apply it. That has to be learned or discovered.

I don't think Rand would ever have denied that what seems correct on the surface is not necessarily correct in fact. If it were necessarily correct in fact, then why would we need a science of epistemology? Why would we need a philosophy? Objectivism has acknowledged that man is neither omniscient nor infallible -- that he needs to discover the principles of correct inference and reasoning, and that it is the task of philosophy and science to provide us with that knowledge.

-- Bill

Post 261

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,

I have read the first few pages of Blink at Amazon.com, and have so far found nothing in there to support my thesis here.

It's interesting, but so far it tends to kill my thesis that rational method is superior to intuition.

My view that rational method is superior to intuition has made me a target of invective on this rational forum. How odd.
(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/21, 7:31pm)


Post 262

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Well, where did you get the notion that "human" rationality was an admixture of reason and intuition then?

Did you get it from philosophers? If so, who? Did you come to the conclusion via your very own reflection/contemplation?

Ed

Post 263

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill,

You wrote, Objectivism doesn't say that people are necessarily responsible morally for errors of knowledge or for errors of reasoning. It simply says that they are morally responsible for choosing to focus their minds when they know they should.

I know the distinction Rand made of errors of knowledge, she applied it to her novels' heroes, heroines, and to her real-life heroes and heroines - at least, until they inevitably failed to live up to her high standards.

However, you have still mentioned being "morally responsible for choosing to focus." I also know that Rand changed the emphasis from "reason" to "focusing" at some later stage.

But that doesn't change the fact that you inserted the word "morally" where it doesn't belong, in the context of mental acts. And in fact, if man is not 100% responsible for everything that goes on in his conscious mental life, then he cannot be held morally responsible for it in the slightest. He is only responsible for the evil he does physically and intentionally.

85% of those doctors who flunked the breast-cancer problem are not morally responsible for flunking it because of a mental inclination of natural origin that cannot be eradicated.

(I am slightly shocked to see such a pro-ARIan stance on this forum.)

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 264

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 7:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert,

You objected to any claim that one could make "... reasoning itself into a moral issue..."

If you were to state that human nature includes no degree of volition (if we are some sort of robot), then there could be no moral issue, but then your argument would not really be an argument, just involuntary behaviors coming from you.

If there is any degree of volition and there are alternatives facing us that we must choose between, and the alternatives have more value or less value, I fail to see how you could not see reasoning itself as a moral issue. How can we understand life or being human without seeing some alternatives as reasonably of more value than others?

It seems so bizarre to me that you would not see that you are impelled, morally and practically, to exercise what reasoning you can, and to act on it, in pursuit of your well-being.

Aren't the alternatives to your position either that we are incapable of any volition - totally robots, or that there is no morality and that all acts are morally identical?



Post 265

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 8:26pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,

I wrote in my previous response to Ted that "intuition" is a (crude) form of reasoning. Nothing in my previous discussion has suggested otherwise. The word "intuition" has various definitions, mystical and non-mystical, and I work hard at avoiding the natural human inclination to conflate its various meanings.

Post 266

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

My thesis only has to accomplish very little to take morality out of the mental context. Taking volition completely out of the picture is not necessary. It only has to show that there is a small part of reasoning (method, not content) that is natural, either innately or so close to it that the difference doesn't matter. I never said it couldn't be controlled, only that it can't be excised. Doctor #2 apparently has more control over it than Doctor #1 who got the wrong answer, even though they both have undergone eight years of college.

All it requires is one exception to the absolute, in this case, that all effort at reasoning (or focusing) is subject to moral judgment. Can it be proved that failing to focus on the truly relevant parts of the breast-cancer problem is someone's moral fault?

Post 267

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 9:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

The sad part is that Doctor #1 has really beaten himself up for not getting the right answer. No, he's not an Objectivist, I don't think Rand was the originator of the idea that moral condemnation can be leveled at failing to think or focus. It is a natural human tendency to see all kinds of failing as moral failing even when it is not.

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 268

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 9:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert,

You really didn't answer my arguments.
------------------

Is there any volition?
Does life offer alternatives that we can respond to with focus and choice?
Are some of those alternatives of different value to the well-being of the person facing them?


If you answer "yes" to those questions, then reasoning itself is a moral issue.

That doesn't mean it would be logical to form moral judgment without any context.

The degree of rationality possible to a person is part of the context (the law makes allowances for those legally insane). The context contains reasonable expectations: I can't make the same quality of medical decision that a trained physician can, but I can decide that it might be good to see a doctor when faced with symptoms.

The context contains motivational information. I can fail to focus for many reasons, and the result might have moral weight in two ways:
1) If I fail to act in my best self-interest, then my self-interest is not as well served as it would have been. That is a moral statement even though it carries no moral condemnation regarding my reasoning. My most precious value could be lost due to an honest error of reasoning. For example, I may have honestly thought my symptoms were just from overeating, and not that it might be the on-set of a heart attack.
2) Or, I might have engaged in evasion out of fear of facing an unpleasant reality and that would be an additional moral judgment - one of personal moral fault.

Discussions of "instincts" or emotions or any other non-rational elements of the human mind don't change any of this.

Post 269

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 10:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

You wrote:

1) If I fail to act in my best self-interest, then my self-interest is not as well served as it would have been. That is a moral statement even though it carries no moral condemnation regarding my reasoning. My most precious value could be lost due to an honest error of reasoning. For example, I may have honestly thought my symptoms were just from overeating, and not that it might be the on-set of a heart attack.
2) Or, I might have engaged in evasion out of fear of facing an unpleasant reality and that would be an additional moral judgment - one of personal moral fault.


How do you know if your failure to act was the result of either evasion or honest error?

Or to put it another way:

How do you know that subconscious evasion at (2) did not lead you to consciously rationalize your "honest error" at (1)?






Post 270

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 10:45pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

Is there any volition?
Does life offer alternatives that we can respond to with focus and choice?
Are some of those alternatives of different value to the well-being of the person facing them?

If you answer "yes" to those questions, then reasoning itself is a moral issue.


You didn't say if I had to answer yes to all three or just to any one of them.

However, regarding the second question, perhaps some focusing or reasoning is not a matter of choice, whereas Rand simply assumed that all focusing is a matter of will.
(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/21, 10:46pm)


Post 271

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 11:41pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

So you won't answer direct questions either, Robert? The way to deal with a would be perjuror is to ask him what he denies. You treat a troll like a perjuror. If he fails to answer, then he does not deny what you have asked him.

I ask you these questions, Robert:

(1) Do you deny that men have volition?
(2) Do you deny that life offers alternatoives to which we cand respond with focus and choice?
(3) Do you deny that some choices will benefit a person's own flourishing better than others?

You will find you have answered these questions whether you wish to or not.

Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 272

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 11:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert,

You asked, "How do you know if your failure to act was the result of either evasion or honest error?"

Every person has established, through their past choices to evade or not, a threshold. It is a kind of boundary (one that moves about) where, for that moment, under a set of circumstances, a person will find themselves between the two opposites. On one side of that threshold, they will be convinced rightly or wrongly of a position and have no sense of evasion. Or they will be very aware that they are lying to themselves which is way over on the other side of that boundary. For some people they are so rigourous in choosing to focus that only extremes of stress would even tempt them to evade. At the other extreme there are people whose choices have been to evade with increasing frequency and as a result, their threshold of 'honest' mistakes prompted by evasion has moved more and more in the direction of faking reality. This boundary isn't a bright line - it is a wide band where we have some discomfort - a clear signal. Evasion doesn't begin as a practice automatically or take root without considerable experience - that isn't in it's nature - we don't work that way.

The point is that we all have a wide boundary-area of sorts where we feel a discomfort and an awareness that we should focus and an awareness that we can choose to evade. The boundary can move over time, and the level of external stressors may be of influence, and we have areas of life where we are more vulnerable than others, but we still have that choice.

That's our nature.


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 273

Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 11:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert,

You didn't say if I had to answer yes to all three or just to any one of them.


And that is your argument? Your contribution to the discussion? Your reasoning?

Post 274

Friday, January 22, 2010 - 4:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert Keele to Ted (post 258):
You see, that's what happens when you cite Wikipedia.
Ted didn't cite Wikipedia; I did (post 253). Do you believe what I cited is wrong?

Ted Keer (post 257):
Robert you are the one who made the claim to know that no other more eloquent proof is possible.
Smile. The usual word among mathematicians in this sort of situation is elegant. "Mathematicians describe an especially pleasing method of proof as elegant." (source)
  
elegant - marked by concision, incisiveness, and ingenuity; cleverly apt and simple.
Example: an elegant solution to a complex problem (source, meaning 3)

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 1/22, 4:51am)


Post 275

Friday, January 22, 2010 - 7:19amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ted,


So you won't answer direct questions either, Robert? The way to deal with a would be perjuror is to ask him what he denies. You treat a troll like a perjuror


Would you just tell me - no, tell all of us here - what your problem is?

Post 276

Friday, January 22, 2010 - 7:20amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

And that is your argument? Your contribution to the discussion? Your reasoning?

No, Steve. Identify it - it is a question

Post 277

Friday, January 22, 2010 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

On one side of that threshold, they will be convinced rightly or wrongly of a position and have no sense of evasion. Or they will be very aware that they are lying to themselves which is way over on the other side of that boundary. Or they will be very aware that they are lying to themselves which is way over on the other side of that boundary.

I take the first sentence to mean that evasion can occur without consciousness or will. In that case, there is no morality involved.

But since you refuse to believe the rational logic that one exception to an absolute disproves the absolute (such as "all mental acts are morally judgable"), I'll try explaining it in a way pleasing to your consequentialism.

What happens when someone is judged for their thoughts? The result is not only self-censorship, but repression. If you have read Barbara Branden's bio or seen the movie about her bio, the pain and suffering she experienced during those sessions to root out her "emotionalism" tells me, on the face of it, that not only their methods (moral condemnation for one) were wrong but that Objectivism's psychological theory is also wrong.

You are aware aren't you that the Objectivist movement has split over this very issue of using moral condemnation as a form of argument?



Post 278

Friday, January 22, 2010 - 7:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
From http://www.jeffcomp.com/faq/wrong.html

Inherently Dishonest Ideas

Like any philosophy, Objectivism has begun to fragment into various schools of thought, each with its own interpretation of Objectivism, and with each school convinced that its particular interpretation is the correct version. This fragmentation has been accompanied by tremendous bitterness and character assassination. Probably nowhere has this bitterness reached such heights as over the subject of inherently dishonest ideas.

Currently, the two main schools of Objectivist thought are headed by Dr. Leonard Peikoff and Dr. David Kelley. Peikoff is supported by the Ayn Rand Institute (ARI), while Kelley is supported by the Institute For Objectivist Studies (IOS). Dr. Peikoff considers Dr. Kelley to be a dishonest renegade; a dangerous man who has abandoned and betrayed the fundamental principles of Objectivism, but who nevertheless continues to claim that he is an Objectivist, and falsely claims to be spreading the ideas of Objectivism. Dr. Kelley mostly ignores Dr. Peikoff, having written Peikoff off as a hopeless intrinsicist. Meanwhile, the supporters of Kelley and Peikoff wage constant, never- ending electronic war with each other on the humanities.philosophy.objectivism newsgroup on the Internet, and to a lesser extent on private mailing lists.

David Kelley was kicked out of the ARI when he disagreed with Peikoff over the proper way to judge a man's ideas. However, unlike so many others in the Objectivist movement who had met similar fates in the past, Dr. Kelley did not simply vanish into obscurity. As a professional philosopher, he founded the IOS and began promoting his own interpretation of Objectivism which has attracted many supporters (including myself).

What exactly are Peikoff and Kelley arguing over? What has caused yet another bitter split in the ranks of Objectivism? A great deal has been written and argued by both sides, but the fundamental point of contention concerns the judging of the intellectual honesty of people. In other words, when someone espouses a false idea, how do we determine if he has merely made an 'honest error,' or is actually guilty of 'evasion,' i.e., refusal to think? The difference is one of crucial importance. Under Objectivism, one does not morally condemn a man for making an honest error in his thinking, however one never forgives (or fails to morally condemn) a dishonest evader, because Objectivism considers evasion to be the root of all evil.

Concerning the question of judging the intellectual honesty of others, Peikoff and Kelley give two very different answers. Peikoff puts forth his position in his essay, "Fact and Value". According to Peikoff:

"Just as every 'is' implies an 'ought,' so every identification of an idea's truth or falsehood implies a moral evaluation of the idea and of its advocates."

In other words, according to Peikoff, as soon as we identify an idea as true or false, this immediately implies a moral judgment of the person who is advocating the idea. In this context, 'moral judgment' means we are trying to determine if this person is being honest, or dishonest. If the idea is true, we assume that he has sought the truth. However if the idea is false, then we must decide if he has committed an honest error, or has engaged in evasion. In other words, we must determine the person's state of mind. Peikoff offers a simple test to make this determination:

"The general principle here is: truth implies as its cause a virtuous mental process; falsehood, beyond a certain point, implies a process of vice."

In other words, if your idea is false, and the falsehood goes beyond a 'certain point,' then you cannot simply be guilty of an honest error in your thinking. Rather, you must have engaged in evasion, which is the root of all evil.

By claiming that false ideas are the result of evasion (at least beyond a certain point), Peikoff gives rise to the concept of inherently dishonest ideas. Peikoff never gives a useful definition of inherently dishonest ideas. In his entire Fact & Value essay, there are only two places where Peikoff makes an effort to provide a definition of inherently dishonest ideas. In the first case, he states that inherently dishonest ideas are an "explicit rebellion against reason and reality." Later on, he talks about ideas that are "openly at war with reason and reality." So the two 'definitions' we have are:

1. Explicit rebellion against reason and reality.
2. Openly at war with reason and reality.

Needless to say, neither of these statements are definitions, except in an extremely limited, technical sense. As Peikoff uses them, they are subjective rhetoric, little more than figures of speech. They are not precise, and they are not objective. A false idea is one that in some way contradicts reason and reality. That's what it means to be false. In that sense, any false idea could be described as an "explicit rebellion against reason and reality," or said to be "openly at war with reason and reality." This is why such 'definitions' are largely useless.

On the other hand, if we take Peikoff's definitions literally, then an inherently dishonest idea could only be an idea that explicitly comes out against reason and reality; one that says specifically, "I'm against reason. I'm against reality." Nihilism might qualify in this regard, but Communism, egalitariansism, non-objective art, or channelers, certainly would not. Nowhere do these ideologies explicitly state, "Down with reason! Down with reality!" Yet Peikoff claims that such ideologies are inherently dishonest.

In short, Peikoff's definitions of inherently dishonest ideas are so vague and subjective as to be worthless, except to dogmatic moralizers who can use such definitions to declare any idea to be inherently dishonest.

Peikoff does give some examples of inherently dishonest ideas, such as Nazism, Communism, non-objective art, non-Aristotelian logic, egalitarianism, nihilism, the pragmatist cult of compromise, and channelers. As Peikoff puts it:

"In all such cases, the ideas are not merely false; in one form or another, they represent an explicit rebellion against reason and reality (and therefore, against man and values). The originators, leaders and intellectual spokesmen of all such movements are necessarily evaders on a major scale; they are not merely mistaken, but are crusading irrationalists. The mass base of such movements are not evaders of the same kind; but most of the followers are dishonest in their own passive way. They are unthinking, intellectually irresponsible ballast, unconcerned with logic or truth."

From the above, one would conclude that an inherently dishonest idea is an idea that cannot be held as a result of honest error. In other words, an academic Marxist must be holding his Marxism as a result of evasion. He cannot be holding it as a result of honest error.

Needless to say, this notion of 'inherently dishonest' ideas is not philosophy; it is simply Peikoff's personal evaluation of Nazism, Communism, etc. Of course Peikoff is entitled to his opinion, but he is not entitled to present it as a philosophical principle. It is okay to say, "I have met many academic Marxists over the years, and all of them turned out to be dishonest evaders." However it is wrong to conclude that all academic Marxists are dishonest evaders. This is a false argument. No matter how many dishonest academic Marxists a man might personally have met, this can never be used to prove that all academic Marxists are inherently dishonest. Human beings simply aren't that predictable.

Even if we could somehow demonstrate that most academic Marxists do, in fact, hold their Marxism as a result of evasion, this still would not prove that all academic Marxists must hold their Marxism as a result of evasion. Because human beings have free will, and can make enormous mistakes on the conceptual level, there is always the possibility that a particular academic Marxist is holding his ideas honestly. In such a case, it would be a monstrous injustice to morally condemn such a man, solely on the basis of the ideas he holds. There can be no greater injustice than to morally condemn a man, solely because the other members of his group are known to be dishonest. Obviously Peikoff's 'certain point' at which an idea becomes inherently dishonest, is critically important. If we know that a man is holding his false idea as the result of evasion, then we can immediately morally condemn him. Unfortunately, Peikoff never tells us where this 'certain point' is, nor how to determine it. This means that every Objectivist is free to determine, on his own, the location of that 'certain point.'

What this means, in actuality, is that every Objectivist uses his own internal standard of reasonableness, and his own knowledge of human psychology, to determine the location of that 'certain point.' He asks himself, "Do I think it's possible to hold such an idea as the result of honest error?" Needless to say, one would expect different individuals to have wildly different answers to such a question. What this does, in effect, is to make the process of judgment, in the realm of ideas, totally subjective. One merely hauls out one's own guess, or estimate, based on one's own limited observations (or feelings). There is no fact of reality on which one can reliably base such an estimate. Such a process is about as 'objective' as Trial By Ordeal.

What does the concept of inherently dishonest ideas mean in practice? According to Peikoff, there can be no such thing as an honest academic Marxist. To become an academic Marxist, a man "must have" engaged in evasion. How does Peikoff know this? He will tell you that the evidence of the falsity of Marxism is simply overwhelming, and no honest adult could be aware of this mountain of evidence and still honestly advocate Marxism. In other words, this is simply Peikoff's psychological guess. It is not proof of any sort. Yet on such shaky grounds, Peikoff (and many of his supporters) are willing to morally condemn human beings, and declare that such people are dishonest evaders.

David Kelley's position is just the opposite of Peikoff's. Writing in his monograph, Truth & Toleration, Kelley states:

"Can we tell from the truth or falsity of an idea, and from its consequences, whether those who accept it are rational or irrational? This is the central issue on which Peikoff and I disagree."

Post 279

Friday, January 22, 2010 - 8:54amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Smile. The usual word among mathematicians in this sort of situation is elegant. "Mathematicians describe an especially pleasing method of proof as elegant." (source)

elegant - marked by concision, incisiveness, and ingenuity; cleverly apt and simple.
Example: an elegant solution to a complex problem (source, meaning 3)

Yes, the word elegant is usually used. My choice was considered, and, if one cares more about the meaning of words than the habit of tribes, superior.

Elegant comes from the Latin ex ligere, "to pick out."

Eloquent means "speaking clearly," from ex loqui "to speak out."

The first word refers to style, the second, (which you didn't bother to define,) to clarity. I think that a proof that could almost fit on the margin of one page would speak more clearly than a proof that takes two hundred pages. It would presumably be more elegant as well, but only in so far is it was also more eloquent.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/22, 10:37am)


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 13Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.