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Friday, January 20, 2006 - 3:45pmSanction this postReply
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So I remembered that in Luke's latest article he mentioned that Oism rejects pure materialism, or "the notion that all actions are fully determined and that free will is an illusion." I haven't been able to find the term "pure materialism" in any references but I did find "eliminative materialism" which mentions "hard determinists are eliminativists with regard to free will" (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy). Is this just a case of different terms?

Sarah

Post 1

Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 1:28amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

I'd say that pure materialism just HAS TO BE eliminative materialism (where mental states simply do not exist). I, myself, am a Binswanger & Searle enthusiast (a property dualist). Monism is a term that encompasses pure (eliminative) materialism -- as well as (pure) idealism.

Ed
[I am not (only) my brain activity]


Post 2

Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 4:24amSanction this postReply
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[I am not (only) my brain activity]
Good slogan for T-shirt......;-)


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Post 3

Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 6:23pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah wrote,
So I remembered that in Luke's latest article he mentioned that Oism rejects pure materialism, or "the notion that all actions are fully determined and that free will is an illusion." I haven't been able to find the term "pure materialism" in any references but I did find "eliminative materialism" which mentions "hard determinists are eliminativists with regard to free will" (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy). Is this just a case of different terms?
I have not encountered the term "pure materialism" in academic philosophy, although I have seen the term "reductive materialism." However, as far as I am aware, materialism has never been defined the way Luke defined it, which, as far as I can see, is nothing more than a definition of determinism. Nor am I aware that Rand or any of her colleagues ever defined materialism in this way. Citing Peikoff's lecture series, "Founders of Western Philosophy: Thales to Hume (1972)," the Glossary of Objectivist Definitions defines materialism as follows: "Materialism [as a technical term in philosophy] . . . is the view that reality is basically matter in motion, and that all so-called non-material or mental phenomena are to be explained entirely in physical, material terms." Observe that this definition of materialism is not synonymous with eliminative materialism, because mental phenomena can be "explained" entirely in physical terms without being "eliminated" or dismissed as non-existent. In his book, The Art of Living Consciously (1997), Nathaniel Branden defines "materialism" as "the doctrine that all that exists is matter and its motions" (p. 201), which is more in accord with eliminative materialism than is the definition in the Glossary of Objectivist Definitions.

At any rate, neither of these definitions implies that determinists are necessarily materialists; one could reject free will and still embrace determinism without embracing materialism. What is illusory, according to eliminative materialism is not simply free will, but consciousness itself. In referring to hard determinism's elimination of free will, the article in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy was giving examples, not of eliminative materialism, but of eliminativism in general. The reference only to hard determinism as eliminating free will undoubtedly reflects the contemporary view that soft determinism (or what Roger Bissell calls "value determinism") is compatible with free will. But, of course, the doctrine of "free will" with which soft determinism is compatible is not the traditional or Objectivist view of free will, which is "eliminated" by any form of determinism, not just by hard determinism.

But what exactly is the correct position on the relationship between mind and body or between consciousness and matter. According to Branden in The Art of Living Consciously, there is a radical difference between consciousness and matter, such that consciousness is not simply an attribute or manifestation of the material brain (and central nervous system), but something altogether separate from it. He writes:

We are not compelled to "reduce" consciousness to matter or matter to consciousness. We can justifiably maintain that neither matter nor consciousness is reducible to the other. There are powerful intellectual arguments against any such reductionism and no good reason to make the attempt. Metaphysically, mind and matter are different. But if they are different in every respect, the problem of explaining their interaction appears insuperable. How can mind influence matter and matter influence mind if they have absolutely nothing in common? And yet, that such reciprocal influence exists seems inescapable. This dilemma played a role in the attempt to reduce one of these two to the other.

Without going into details, I will suggest a possible way out. There is nothing inherently illogical--nothing that contradicts the rest of our knowledge--in positing some underlying reality of which both matter and consciousness are manifestations. The advantage of such a hypothesis is that it provides a means to resolve a problem that has troubled philosophers for centuries--"the mind-body problem," the problem of accounting for the interaction of consciousness and physical reality. If they have a common source, then they do have a point of commonality that makes their ability to interact less puzzling. How we would test this hypothesis, or provided justification for it, is another question. (pp. 201-202)

In his book, Introduction to Philosophical Analysis (1967), John Hospers comments on this hypothesis, which is known in philosophy as "the double aspect theory":

According to this view, mental and physical events are merely two aspects of the same underlying substance. The substance itself is generally conceived to be unknowable by human beings, but two of its aspects, the mental and the physical, are known. . . . We can speak glibly enough of "two aspects of the same thing," "two sides of the same coin," and so on; but precisely what is it of which the mental and the physical are two aspects? It would seem that in attempting to get rid of one mystery (or at any rate, one ultimate fact), we have got stuck with another. Instead of saying that mental-physical correlations are ultimate laws of nature, we attempt to explain them by saying that they are two aspects of some underlying substance--a substance with which, however, no one has any acquaintance, and of which no one has any knowledge. (p. 398)

Branden mentioned to me that Rand was sympathetic to this hypothesis and that her term for the underlying substance or underlying reality was "little stuff." Of course, we have only Branden's word on this, as Rand never said anything about it publicly (or privately in any of her journals), nor did she ever indicate that it was part of her philosophy. Moreover, the underlying reality concept (or "little stuff" theory) is at odds with the view originally presented by Branden in his book The Psychology of Self-Esteem (1969), wherein he writes:

Consciousness is an attribute of living organisms--an attribute of life at a certain level of development and organization. . . . It is true that whereas matter can exist apart form consciousness, consciousness cannot exist apart from matter, i.e., apart from a living organism. But this dependence of consciousness on matter does not in any way support the claim that they are identical. On the contrary: as more than one critic of reductive materialism has pointed out, it is reasonable to speak of one thing being dependent on another only if they are not identical. (pp. 5-8)

Note the reference to consciousness as an "attribute" of material entities, that "cannot exist apart from matter, i.e., apart from living organisms." In the passage from The Art of Living Consciously, Branden no longer regards consciousness as an attribute of matter--an attribute of material organisms--since he now views consciousness as "interacting" with matter. After all, an attribute does not "interact" with that of which it is an attribute. In order for two things to interact, they must be independent of one another. But if consciousness is an attribute of material organisms, then it is not independent of matter--as Branden acknowledged when he wrote that "whereas matter can exist apart form consciousness, consciousness cannot exist apart from matter." It makes no more sense to say that the mind "interacts" with the body (or with the brain), then it does to say that vision interacts with the eyes, or that digestion interacts with the stomach. There is no mind-body problem if, as Branden claims, the problem is one "of accounting for the interaction of consciousness and physical reality."

But there is still the question of the exact relation that the mind does bear to the body. If the mind is simply an attribute of the body, as Branden originally stated, can it be described as material? It can insofar as it is part of the body, which is itself material. But we characteristically refer to consciousness as "mental" instead of physical or material in order to distinguish its actions from those that involve other parts of the physical body. So, in that sense, conscious acts are non-physical or non-material, by definition. The reductive (or eliminative) materialist is uncomfortable with this designation, because it suggests that mental acts are incorporeal and insubstantial, connoting some form of mysticism. But they need not be viewed that way, as long as we understand that consciousness is an attribute of a physical brain and central nervous system, which are indispensable to its existence.

But what about Branden's point that the reciprocal influence or interaction of mind and matter seems inescapable. After all, it would appear that fear, a mental state, can cause the heart to beat faster and that love (a mental state) can cause physical changes in the body. How do we reconcile this apparent reciprocal influence with the idea that two things cannot interact with each other unless they are independent existents. Is the mind, therefore, independent of the body, and not simply an attribute or manifestation of it? And if the mind is independent of the body, does that mean that the soul can survive death and that extra-sensory perception is possible--two positions that Objectivists (but not Branden) vigorously reject?

These questions can, I think, be answered by recognizing that if the mind is an attribute of the body--of the brain and central nervous system--then the effect of fear on one's heart rate, or of love on one's physical responses, is simultaneously the effect of a certain part of the conscious brain on the autonomic nervous system. According to this view, mental processes are simultaneously brain processes, identified from two different perspectives--extrospectively from external observation and brain imaging and introspectively from a person's own conscious awareness. For the same reason, brain abnormalities can manifest themselves as mental disorders, not because the brain "influences" or "interacts" with the mind, but because brain abnormalities and their corresponding mental disorders are the same phenomena viewed from different perspectives. The alternative "interactionist" explanation makes no more sense than does the idea that vision, a mental experience, interacts with the eye(s), a physical sense organ. The experience of vision is simultaneously the function of the eyes under certain physical conditions, not two different entities or substances interacting with each other.

What about Branden's point that if mental states are dependent on physical states, then the two cannot be identical? Is this true? It all depends on what is meant by "dependent" in this context. Is thunder dependent on lightening. Yes, because without lightening, there would be no thunder, yet thunder and lightening are the same thing in the sense that they are simply two manifestations of the same phenomenon--the atmospheric discharge of electricity. Is the evening star dependent on the morning star? Yes, because without the morning star, there would be no evening star, yet the morning star and the evening star are the same planet. Similarly, mental activity is dependent on brain activity, but that does not mean that mental activity and brain activity are not the same process viewed from different perspectives.

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 1/21, 6:30pm)

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 1/21, 7:44pm)


Post 4

Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 10:44pmSanction this postReply
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In order for two things to interact, they must be independent of one another.
That is false by every meaning of "independent" I know. Independent actually means "one is free from interaction from the other" and "one is completely unrelated to the other, no information is gained about one by knowing anything about the other." In order for two things to interact, there must be a relationship between them, which is some sort of "dependence" in the information theory sense. If one thing is dependent on the other, vice versa must be true. Everything in knowable reality, everything that exists that we can know of has a relationship with us, all of it is somewhat dependent on us and we are somewhat dependent on it. If something was absolutely independent from what we can interact with, there would be absolutely no way to interact with it, sense it, know it.

Post 5

Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 11:10pmSanction this postReply
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Dean, what I meant is that they must exist as separate entities. Digestion does not interact with the stomach, because it is metaphysically dependent on the stomach; it is a function of the stomach. Vision does not interact with the eyes, for the same reason. Vision and the eyes would have to exist as separate entities in order to interact with each other. But there is no interaction, because vision is a function of the eyes. Similarly, in order for the mind to interact with the brain, the mind and brain would have to be separate entities. Then they could come together and interact. But since the mind is dependent on the brain, there is no more interaction between the mind and the brain than there is between the stomach and digestion. Do you see what I'm saying? That's the sense in which I meant it.

- Bill

Post 6

Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 11:55pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Digestion - Stomach, food
Vision - light, eyes, cones, rods, neurons
Thinking - neurons

I don't know what you mean by "mind".

On the left above, I have complex relationships between parts of reality, and on the right I list the parts of that go through/perform those relationships.

Digestion is less a part of reality's state and more a process that reality goes through as it changes in state. Digestion is a relationship/process that the stomach and food can go through, it only exists in the form of a relationship/process. I wouldn't say that digestion is or is not dependent on stomach or food. It exists only in that it is what the stomach and food do together.

The same can be said about vision to light, eyes, cones, rods, neurons; and thinking to neurons. Vision is a process, it is what light, eyes, cones, rods, and neurons can do. Thinking is a process, it is what neurons can do.

Post 7

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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Digestion - Stomach, food
Vision - light, eyes, cones, rods, neurons
Thinking - neurons

I don't know what you mean by "mind".
The mind is (a certain part of) the brain identified introspectively.
On the left above, I have complex relationships between parts of reality, and on the right I list the parts of that go through/perform those relationships.

Digestion is less a part of reality's state and more a process that reality goes through as it changes in state. Digestion is a relationship/process that the stomach and food can go through, it only exists in the form of a relationship/process. I wouldn't say that digestion is or is not dependent on stomach or food. It exists only in that it is what the stomach and food do together.
By "dependent on," I meant 'requires for its existence.'
The same can be said about vision to light, eyes, cones, rods, neurons; and thinking to neurons. Vision is a process, it is what light, eyes, cones, rods, and neurons can do. Thinking is a process, it is what neurons can do.
I have no problem with this, as long as we recognize that by "do" in this context, we mean that thinking is a function performed by these neurons, which a person engages in, just as seeing is a function of the eyes that he performs, or digestion a function of the stomach that he undergoes. It is a person who thinks, sees, digests food, etc., not just his bodily parts. I'm not suggesting that you are denying this, but only stressing it, so there's no misunderstanding.

- Bill

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Post 8

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 11:00amSanction this postReply
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By "dependent on," I meant 'requires for its existence.'
Enter: quantum measurement.

What, then, can you say is not dependent on something? What requires nothing else to exist?

And I swear, if anyone says "reality" I'm going to shoot them... with an internet bullet. That's a non-answer; it doesn't mean anything to say that everything is dependent on nothing.

Sarah

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Post 9

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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Bill,
The mind is (a certain part of) the brain identified introspectively.
Which part exactly? The thinking part (the process that your neurons go through) or the actual neurons themselves? Maybe what you mean by "mind" is a group of neurons that are capable of or currently performing the process of thinking.
I have no problem with this, as long as we recognize that by "do" in this context, we mean that thinking is a function performed by these neurons, which a person engages in, just as seeing is a function of the eyes that he performs, or digestion a function of the stomach that he undergoes. It is a person who thinks, sees, digests food, etc., not just his bodily parts. I'm not suggesting that you are denying this, but only stressing it, so there's no misunderstanding.
I'm in agreement here. It is the parts that are doing it, and in whole, it is the person doing it.


Sarah,
What, then, can you say is not dependent on something?
Using my definition of "dependent" such a thing would be undetectable (have no influence on anything), and un-knowable.
What requires nothing else to exist?
Are you asking "Could it be true that there are things that exist that are completely independent of us, does anything require that such a thing does not exist?" My answer: it could be true, there is no requirement. But... if such a thing did exist, would it matter at all to us? No, because it is completely independent.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 1/22, 12:01pm)


Post 10

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

I think that's a good answer.

Sarah

Post 11

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
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Ed wrote (post 1):

"I, myself, am a Binswanger & Searle enthusiast (a property dualist)."

Has Harry Binswanger come out and said in so many words that
he espouses property dualism?

Searle explicitly denies that he's a property dualist, and he wrote
a 9-page essay entitled "Why I Am Not a Property Dualist" addressing
what he sees as a common misperception of his views.

The essay is available for downloading from his website:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~jsearle/PropertydualismFNL.doc



EXCERPT:

" I have argued in a number of writings that the philosophical part
(though not the neurobiological part) of the traditional mind-body
problem has a fairly simple and obvious solution: All of our mental
phenomena are caused by lower level neuronal processes in the brain
and are themselves realized in the brain as higher level, or system,
features. The form of causation is "bottom up," whereby the behavior
of lower level elements, presumably neurons and synapses, causes the
higher level or system features of consciousness and intentionality.

[....]

To many people biological naturalism looks a lot like property
dualism. Because I believe property dualism is mistaken, I would like
to try to clarify the differences between the two accounts and try to
expose the weaknesses in property dualism. This short paper then has
the two subjects expressed by the double meanings in its title: why my
views are not the same as property dualism, and why I find property
dualism unacceptable.

[....]

[...] there is a sense in which consciousness is reducible: The mark of
empirical reality is the possession of cause and effect relations,
and consciousness (like other system features) has no cause and effect
relations beyond those of its microstructural base. There is nothing
in your brain except neurons (together with glial cells, blood flow
and all the rest of it) and sometimes a big chunk of the
thalamocortical system is conscious. The sense in which, though
causally reducible, it is ontologically irreducible, is that a
complete description of the third person objective features of the
brain would not be a description of its first person subjective
features.

[....]

The property dualist wants to say that consciousness is a mental and
therefore not physical feature of the brain. I want to say
consciousness is a mental and therefore biological and therefore
physical feature of the brain. But because the traditional vocabulary
was designed to contrast the mental and the physical, I cannot say
what I want to say in the traditional vocabulary without sounding like
I am saying something inconsistent. Similarly when the identity
theorists said that consciousness is nothing but a neurobiological
process, they meant that consciousness as qualitative, subjective,
irreducibly phenomenological (airy fairy, touchy feely, etc.) does not
even exist, that only third person neurobiological processes exist. I
want also to say that consciousness is nothing but a neurobiological
process, and by that I mean that precisely because consciousness is
qualitative, subjective, irreducibly phenomenological (airy fairy,
touchy feely, etc.) it has to be a neurobiological process; because,
so far, we have not found any system that can cause and realize
conscious states except brain systems.

[....]

The problem is not only that we have an obsolete 17th century
vocabulary that contrasts the mental and the physical, but that we
also have a misconception of the nature of reduction. Causal reduction
does not necessarily imply ontological reduction, though typically
where we have a causal reduction as in the case of the liquidity,
solidity and color we have tended to make an ontological reduction.
But the impossibility of an ontological reduction in the case of
consciousness does not give it any mysterious metaphysical status.
Consciousness does not exist in a separate realm and it does not have
any causal powers in addition to those of its neuronal base any more
than solidity has any extra causal powers in addition to its molecular
base.

[....]

Both materialism and dualism are trying to say something true, but
they both wind up saying something false. The materialist is trying
to say, truly, that the universe consists entirely of material
phenomena such as physical particles in fields of force. But he ends
up saying, falsely, that irreducible states of consciousness do not
exist. The dualist is trying to say, truly, that ontologically
irreducible states of consciousness do exist, but he ends up saying,
falsely, that these are not ordinary parts of the physical world. The
trick is to state the truth in each view without saying the falsehood.
To do that we have to challenge the assumptions behind the
traditional vocabulary. The traditional vocabulary is based on the
assumption that if something is a state of consciousness in the strict
sense -- it is inner, qualitative, subjective, etc. -- then it cannot in
those very respects be physical or material. And conversely if
something is physical or material then it cannot in its physical or
material respects be a state of consciousness.

Once you abandon the assumptions behind the traditional vocabulary it
is not hard to state the truth. The universe does consist entirely in
physical particles in fields of force (or whatever the ultimately true
physics discovers), these are typically organized into systems, some
of the systems are biological, and some of the biological systems are
conscious. Consciousness is thus an ordinary feature of certain
biological systems, in the same way that photosynthesis, digestion,
and lactation are ordinary features of biological systems. "

END EXCERPT


___


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Post 12

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 1:37pmSanction this postReply
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Dean wrote to Bill:

"Which part exactly? The thinking part (the process that your neurons go through) or the actual neurons themselves? Maybe what you mean by 'mind' is a group of neurons that are capable of or currently performing the process of thinking."

Bill replied:

"I have no problem with this, as long as we recognize that by 'do' in this context, we mean that thinking is a function performed by these neurons, which a person engages in, just as seeing is a function of the eyes that he performs, or digestion a function of the stomach that he undergoes. It is a person who thinks, sees, digests food, etc., not just his bodily parts. I'm not suggesting that you are denying this, but only stressing it, so there's no misunderstanding."

Dean says:

"I'm in agreement here. It is the parts that are doing it, and in whole, it is the person doing it."

I see either (a) no meaning added by "the person" in this description; or (b) an inconsistency introduced. This is the same issue I raised on the "Perception of Reality" thread. And Bill gives what seems to me the same answer -- only he gave it more briefly here.

Bill, if all you mean by "person" (or "I") is the total entity, what have you added by referring to the "person" as the locus of the "doing"? What you appear to me to mean is that there's something over and above the neuronal functioning, some kind of additional entity which "thinks, sees, digests food, etc," some kind of entity which "has" the bodily parts instead of being merely the totality of those parts in interaction.

Ellen


___
(Edited by Ellen Stuttle
on 1/22, 1:40pm)


Post 13

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
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Ellen, a person is not the totality of his parts in interaction; he's an integration of the parts, or "an integrate," to use a term of Nathaniel Branden's.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 1/22, 3:50pm)


Post 14

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 3:45pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote, By "dependent on," I meant 'requires for its existence.' Sarah replied,
What, then, can you say is not dependent on something? What requires nothing else to exist?
Just to reestablish the context here, my original point was that two things cannot interact with each other unless either is not dependent on the other for its existence; in other words, they must be separate and distinct from each other; then they can come together and interact. I can interact with you, but my eyes cannot interact with my vision, nor my mind with my brain. I hope that point is clear. It has nothing to do with the question of whether or not everything is dependent on something.

- Bill


Post 15

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 3:50pmSanction this postReply
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Vision isn't a "thing."

Post 16

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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Vision isn't a "thing."
Right, it's not a "thing" in the sense of an entity, but a faculty or a process; but vision is to the eyes as the thought is to the brain. Vision is the conscious correlate of eye function, just as thought is the conscious correlate of brain function. There is no interaction in either case. Do you agree?

- Bill

Post 17

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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Ellen,

Ed wrote (post 1):


"I, myself, am a Binswanger & Searle enthusiast (a property dualist)."

Has Harry Binswanger come out and said in so many words that
he espouses property dualism?

Searle explicitly denies that he's a property dualist, and he wrote
a 9-page essay entitled "Why I Am Not a Property Dualist" addressing
what he sees as a common misperception of his views.
Dammit Ellen, you're the second person to prove me wrong in one week!

;-)

Allllright, so I messed up. These guys are "concept dualists" -- not property dualists. Concept dualists hold that there is a multi-layered reality, property dualists merely hold that you can talk about one thing in 2 different ways (on 2 different levels). This is due to them both taking consciousness as an irreducible phenomenon.

Sorry for the confabulation. Hope this response clears it all up.

Ed


Post 18

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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Ah, so "a person" is "an integrate," according to Bill, as borrowed from Branden.

Ok, then let's substitute "an integrate" in Bill's earlier reply to Dean:

" [...] by 'do' in this context, we mean that thinking is a function performed by these neurons, which [an integrate] engages in, just as seeing is a function of the eyes that [an integrate] performs, or digestion a function of the stomach that [an integrate] undergoes. It is [an integrate] who thinks, sees, digests food, etc., not just [the integrate's] bodily parts."

Same question, what have you added by referring to "an integrate" as the locus of the "doing"? Is the "integrate" some kind of entity which "has" the body parts (with which functions are performed)? Also: HOW does the "integrate" engage in, perform, undergo these functions?

Ellen



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Post 19

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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Right, it's not a "thing" in the sense of an entity, but a faculty or a process; but vision is to the eyes as the thought is to the brain. Vision is the conscious correlate of eye function, just as thought is the conscious correlate of brain function. There is no interaction in either case. Do you agree?
I don't think asking whether there is a vision-eye or thought-brain "interaction" is even a valid question. Tell me, how many purples do you have?

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