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Post 80

Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 7:08pmSanction this postReply
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Artie:

     Definitely VERY thought-provoking posts (as all of yours have been!)

     But, I have a question.

     Given that you do not see the term 'mind' as meaningfully...'different'...from talking about brain-processes (or, as many others say, "brain-states"), but, is ONLY physical (though specialized) dynamic occurrences, then...what can you 'physically' mean by 'introspection'?

     I have other 'subject'/'observer' questions, but, I'll hold off for your response.

LLAP
J:D


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Post 81

Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 8:46pmSanction this postReply
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I had so many more thoughts about this thread during my walk this evening that I wish I could go back and rewrite my last post. But instead, I'll just blather on and hope no one will chide me too harshly for seeming to reverse myself.  :-/

I want to revisit Merlin's question about "mind" and give him a more satisfactory answer. I think that what always trips me up is how it seems to be the only one of our biological capacities and sets of processes that is named as though it were a separate entity from the organ that activates that power and carries out those processes. That is why I tried to de-entitize (is that a word?) it by showing how it's parallel to digestion and locomotion. No one would think of either of those as though they were entities that somehow interact with our stomachs or our legs, right? No one speaks of digestion-stomach interaction or a clash between locomotion and legs, do they? (Maybe Descartes just overlooked those dualisms?)

Well, so far, so good. Except then I tried to answer Merlin in re concepts, memories, emotions, etc., I got sidetracked into mistakenly thinking he wondered whether I thought there was a subconscious mind -- back into mind as "entity," in other words. Instead (if I'm tuned in properly now), he was just asking whether I limited mind (the process) to introspection (and perception?), or whether I also meant to include all the other things he named (and more). Yes, I think that mind (as process) includes all the conscious processes of which we are introspectively aware. I think that I got that much across (I hope) in my last post.

Now I want to go on past that a bit...I said that I don't think there is such a thing as the subconscious or unconscious mind, as a kind of entity lurking inside the brain and interacting with it. I still don't think there is. However, after reflecting on this a bit, it seems to me that there would have to be mental processes that take place below the level of awareness. The way I realized this was by going back to my parallel with digestion and locomotion.

Although we are sometimes aware of our stomach's and bowels' processes of digesting food (sometimes even painfully aware), through internal perception (the technical term, I think, is "interoception" or "enteroception," not to be confused with "introspection"), usually, or much of the time, we are not aware of those processes. They go on, even when we are not perceptually aware of them -- and thank goodness that they do!

The same is true, I believe, of locomotion. When we learn to walk or ride a bike or drive a car or type on a keyboard, we are very aware of the process (another kind of internal perception, kinesthetic?), then we make it automatic, and we are not usually aware of what we are doing, unless there is a problem that we need to pay attention to (such as a sore finger to compensate for in typing). Those physical motions go on, even when we are not perceptually aware of them -- and again, thank goodness that they do!

Well, it stands to reason that the same would be true of our mental processes or mentation. Merlin uses the term "mind." I prefer to use the term "mentation," even though it's not as graceful a word as "mind," because it highlights the view that mental processes are something the brain does, rather than some entity interacting with the brain. (But I'll tell you one thing: if someone ever proves that digestion is an entity that interacts with the stomach, or that locomotion is an entity that interacts with our extremities, I'm ruined!  :-) And it seems clear to me that there must be processes our brains carry out that are below the level of awareness that are the same kinds of processes of which we can also be consciously aware. (I suppose I should thank goodness (or whomever) that these processes go on, too, even when we are not introspectively aware of them!)

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to sign off for a while. Don't take this the wrong way, you philosophical detectors, but my digestion is really giving me fits tonight!  :-)

Artie


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Post 82

Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 9:56pmSanction this postReply
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John Dailey wrote:
Given that you do not see the term 'mind' as meaningfully...'different'...from talking about brain-processes (or, as many others say, "brain-states"), but, is ONLY physical (though specialized) dynamic occurrences, then...what can you 'physically' mean by 'introspection'?
I'm not quite sure I understand your question, John. But I think a clue to what you are puzzled about is contained in the word "ONLY."

I do not think that mental processes are only physical brain processes. They are physical brain processes insofar as we are (or can be) directly aware of them through introspection, which is what gives them their mental quality. We can (or neuroscientists can) also be aware of those physical brain processes (or at least some of them) through perceptual and scientific means, but we are only aware of them by this means as having a physical quality. We have to correlate them as being two aspects of the same brain process. They are both forms in which we are aware of what the brain is doing, and each form of awareness operates by means of a specific means of awareness. Through introspection, we don't get the same detailed physical information that we get through scientific study, but instead we get data that helps us directly control our brain's activities. Introspection, being direct awareness of our brain functions, is extremely practical. It is a vital part of our tool of survival. (And mental qualities viewed in this way are not a "useless epiphenomenon"!)

Here is an analogy. We wouldn't say that perceived sound is only a physical action of a piano. It is the physical action of a piano insofar as we are directly aware of it through perception, which is what gives that action its perceptual quality. We can also be aware of that physical action through closer perceptual and scientific study of the nature of the piano, but we are only aware of its action by this means as having a physical quality. We have to correlate them as being two aspects of the same action of the piano. They are each forms in which we are aware of what the piano is doing, and each form of awareness operates by means of a specific means of awareness. Through perception, we don't get the same detailed physical information about the piano that we get through scientific study, but instead we get data that helps us directly control the piano's actions (especially if it is we who are playing it, rather than one of the kids!). Perception, being direct awareness of the actions of objects in the environment (including our own bodies), is extremely practical. It is a vital part of our tool of survival.

So, John, I think I have to reject your starting assumption. I don't see consciousness or mental processes as "only" physical, any more than I see (or hear!) sounds as "only" physical. Introspected mental processes and perceived sounds are "meaningfully different" from brain processes and physically produced sounds in a very important respect -- just as a visible lightning flash and an audible thunder clap are meaningfully different from a lightning bolt. In each case, the former are a specific form in which we are aware of the latter. All I am really doing here is applying basic Peikoffian (I'm tickled when folks spell his name "Piekoff" :-) analysis of perception to introspection. I'm basically just making a 360 degree application of his methodology. What's sauce for the piano is sauce for the brain, don't you think? :-)

Of course, my view of introspection contains more than a dollop of speculation. As I said earlier, "...scientists haven't yet found out the mechanism of introspection to compare to our organs of perception, but I'd be willing to bet that it's brain tissues of some sort, maybe here and there in the brain, rather than in one particular spot like an eyeball." Now, I may be wrong. The neuro folks might have figured this out while I wasn't paying attention. But assuming that they haven't yet located where in the brain (whether one or many locations), it seems like the most reasonable working assumption for figuring out how introspection works as a physical brain process. (And yes, I think that we are able to introspect ourselves introspecting -- and that this piggy-back process is also a physical brain process.) If I were working in the field, that is exactly what I'd be trying to nail down, instead of locating "religious modules" in the brain, or whatever.

It occurs to me that there is one objection John or someone else might make, if they are not convinced so far. They might ask: "How can you say that introspection is direct awareness of brain processes, when what we introspect doesn't 'look' a bit like brain processes?" They might as well ask: "How can you say that auditory perception is direct awareness of physical sound, when what we perceive doesn't sound a bit like those little sine wave dealies?" In each case, my answer would be the same: introspected mental qualities and auditory sensory qualities are the forms in which we are directly aware of brain processes and physical sounds. We don't detect those qualities when we scientifically study brain processes and physical sounds, so why should we detect neurotransmitter chemical reactions and periodic vibrations when we introspect brain processes or perceive physical sounds? It is exactly due to the difference in our mode and form of awareness of them that these things are meaningfully different from one another.

Well, it's bedtime, so I guess I will have to wait until tomorrow to see if there are any further questions about how I view introspection. Also, I'll be interested in hearing from John about the "subject/observer questions" he mentioned.

Artie


Post 83

Friday, February 3, 2006 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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Artie wrote,
I think I agree with Ed. Mind is what distinguishes us from the animals in re our conscious awareness. Animals have memories, too, but those while stored are not consciousness (let alone, mind). They are just stored stuff in the brain, waiting to be activated (or not).
My understanding of the concept of consciousness is that it refers simply to awareness: one is conscious; one is aware -- these terms mean basically the same thing. So I would say that since the lower animals are aware of reality (not of their awareness of it, mind you), they are conscious. In fact, I'd equate consciousness with sentience. A sentient organism is conscious of existence in some manner, however primitive, so all sentient organisms can be classified as conscious beings. In this respect, consciousness has a certain broad fundamentality within which different forms of consciousness can be differentiated--from the lowest insect to the highest mammal. (I had previously equated consciousness with mind in human beings, but I don't think it makes to sense to say that the lower animals have minds, which I'd equate with rational consciousness.) The identification of consciousness with awareness is Rand's view as well. In "The Objectivist Ethics," she writes:
'
Consciousness--for those living organisms which possess it--is the basic means of survival.

The simpler organisms, such as plants, can survive by means of their automatic physical functions. The higher organisms, such as animals and man, cannot: their needs are more complex and the range of their actions is wider. The physical functions of their bodies can perform automatically only the task of using fuel, but cannot obtain that fuel. To obtain it, the higher organisms need the faculty of consciousness. A plant can obtain its food from the soil in which it grows. An animal has to hunt for it. Man has to produce it....The range of actions required for the survival of the higher organisms is wider: it is proportionate to the range of their consciousness. The lower of the conscious species possess only the faculty of sensation, which is sufficient to direct their actions and provide for their needs. A sensation is produced by the automatic reaction of a sense organ to a stimulus from the outside world; it lasts for the duration of the immediate moment, as long as the stimulus lasts and no longer.... The higher organisms possess a much more potent form of consciousness: they possess the faculty of retaining sensations, which is the faculty of perception. A "perception" is a group of sensations automatically retained and integrated by the brain of a living organism, which gives it the ability to be aware not of single stimuli, but of entities, of things. An animal is guided, not merely by immediate sensations, but by percepts. Its actions are not single, discrete responses to single, separate stimuli, but are directed by an integrated awareness of the perceptual reality confronting it. (VOS, pp. 18-19)

Artie, as for your definition of (human) consciousness as "the biological process of which we are directly aware through introspection," the problem I see with it is that awareness and introspection, which are part of the definition, presuppose consciousness, in the sense that you can't understand what awareness and introspection are without first understanding what consciousness is. It's as though you had defined consciousness as "the biological process of which we are directly conscious through introspection (i.e., through inwardly directed awareness)." That's why I regard the definition of consciousness is necessarily ostensive.

That said, I'd like to join Ed and Michael in congratulating you on some very fine posts. It's nice to have someone of your caliber on the list.

- Bill

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Post 84

Friday, February 3, 2006 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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(I had previously equated consciousness with mind in human beings, but I don't think it makes to sense to say that the lower animals have minds, which I'd equate with rational consciousness.) The identification of consciousness with awareness is Rand's view as well.


The difference between sentiency and sapiancy - one is consciousness, the other is mindfulness.


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Post 85

Friday, February 3, 2006 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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Bill Dwyer, thank you for the nice compliment. :-)

 

You raise an interesting point about my attempt to define consciousness as "the biological process of which we are directly aware through introspection." You point out that "awareness and introspection, which are part of the definition, presuppose consciousness, in the sense that you can't understand what awareness and introspection are without first understanding what consciousness is." Although you don't say it in so many words, you are suggesting here that my attempted definition is circular, and I have to agree.

 

There are some good points about my attempted definition. First, it certainly seems to be a true statement about consciousness – consciousness is a biological process, and it is something (actually, the only thing) of which we are directly aware through introspection. Secondly, the fact that we are aware of consciousness directly through introspection is something that really does differentiate consciousness from everything else in reality (let alone all other biological processes). So far, so good…

 

However, my attempted definition does not meet the Rule of Fundamentality. (Its circularity, which you allude to, is a symptom of this problem.) While it does identify a characteristic of consciousness (namely, that consciousness – and only consciousness – can be held as the direct object of introspection) that differentiates it from all other biological processes, it does not give the fundamental characteristic of consciousness that differentiates it from all other biological processes.

 

Perhaps this comparison will help explain what I mean. Attempting to define “consciousness” as: that which can be the direct object of introspection would be like attempting to define “existence” as: that which can be the object of awareness.

 

On the one hand, introspection is a species of consciousness, and you truly do have to use that particular species of consciousness in order to be directly aware of any kind of consciousness – just as awareness is a certain kind of thing that exists, and you truly do have to use that particular kind of thing that exists in order to be aware of anything that exists.

 

On the other hand, it is no more true that consciousness needs introspection in order to exist and have a nature (which is to be captured in a definition), than that existence needs consciousness in order to exist and have a nature (which is to be captured in a definition). So, just as consciousness is not essential to existence (neither in reality, nor in the content of its definition), neither is introspection essential to consciousness.

 

Thus, accessibility via consciousness cannot be the differentia of “existence,” and direct accessibility via introspection cannot be the differentia of “consciousness.”

 

More importantly, I can’t think of anything else that can be the differentia for “existence” or “consciousness” either. I think that is why, as Rand observes, any attempt to define either “existence” or “consciousness” at best can instead only be a restatement of them, with synonyms or difference forms of the same word. Existence is everything that exists. Existence is the sum total of reality. Existence is everything in the universe. Consciousness is awareness of reality. Consciousness is being conscious of reality.

 

So, what does she do instead? Well, as Bill has already noted, she defines them ostensively, basically by pointing. With “existence,” it’s pretty easy to do – you just point to a lot of different things, or sweep your arm around, expecting that your listener will engage his perception and take in all that you are pointing to, and say “By ‘existence,’ I mean ALL OF THIS.”

 

But how do you do it with “consciousness”? That’s what had me baffled at first, which drove me kind of sideways into my circular definition. But after thinking about it for a while, it occurred to me that to ostensively define “consciousness,” you have to draw your or another person’s attention to as many different kinds of conscious acts as you can – memory, perception, concept-formation, logical argumentation, emotion, imagination, etc. – and say, “By ‘consciousness,’ I mean ALL OF THOSE ACTS.”

 

But here’s the kicker: how do you focus your attention on these different acts, or draw another’s attention to them? You have to enlist the aid of introspection. You cannot form the concept of “consciousness” without introspecting its various units and abstracting from them, and you cannot form your definition of it, nor communicate that definition to another, without engaging yourself and your listener in an act of introspection.

 

I think that is why I thought that introspection was vital to the definition of “consciousness.” It is vital – not, however, as the differentia of consciousness, but as the mental act by which we line up all the things (conscious acts) that we want to verbally point to, and from which we want to abstract the most general category of “consciousness.”

 
So, yes, Bill, I agree with you. I don’t think we can do better than the ostensive approach, in defining “consciousness.” However, I still say that it is absolutely true – and very helpful when digging into the mind-body (pseudo) problem – to remember that a (non-essential but) very real difference between consciousness and other biological processes is that we are directly aware of the former (and only the former) via introspection.
 
Artie

(Edited by Ms. Kerridge Artemis Kerridge on 2/03, 3:25pm)


Post 86

Friday, February 3, 2006 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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How's this? ...

The mind can be "perceived" via introspection of one's own conceptual awareness & will (agency).

The intellect (conceptual awareness) & the will (agency, intentionality, or "intellectual appetite" -- as Aquinas put it). The 2 necessary and sufficient ingredients for the instantiation of a mind -- identified introspectively.

Ed


Post 87

Friday, February 3, 2006 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
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If you haven't already done so, check out the description in my Extended Profile.

REB aka AK


Post 88

Friday, February 3, 2006 - 11:40pmSanction this postReply
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Artie/Roger/Nathaniel/Whoever:

     Still waiting for relevent responses to my distinctions re...well, you know by now, hmmm?

J-D


Post 89

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 12:01amSanction this postReply
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Roger/'Artie'/N.B./'Helen'/etc:
 
     On second thought, Rog, ignore my last challenge. Why you 'fessed up in your profile, I'm tempted to guess (but, at this point, couldn't care less, your profile's-rationale nwst).

     I was tempted in my earlier response to...'Artie'...to point out that distinctive 'preference' for using 'or' as stressed by you (Roger) and Bill; but, like Rand with the B's, I decided to let an explicit comparison go...for then. Sheesh. 'Shoulda known.'

     That your name-game pretense caused others ('specially ME) to waste so much time re-hashing the s-a-m-e o-l-d 'explanations' and arguments over-and-over ...makes me think of all that I've read about PARC.
 
     This is definitely my last, time-wasting, communique with you...anywhere.

     I will let you in on one thing though: even here on SOLO, you're not the 1st on my list to ignore.

JD


Post 90

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 7:11amSanction this postReply
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Will have to admit wondered at a kindly senior grandmotherly woman suddenly popping up with professorish knowledge of philosophy - but no, never thought of a scam.

Post 91

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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Roger/Artemis,

You sneaky dog. :-)  You even avoided using "value determinism"!


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Post 92

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 8:27amSanction this postReply
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Oh, I used value-determinism, all right, Merlin (I always use it) -- I just didn't mention it!  :-)

REB

(Edited by Roger Bissell on 2/04, 8:36am)

(Edited by Roger Bissell on 2/04, 12:59pm)


Post 93

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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I'm not sad that Roger lied to me, I'm not sad that I may no longer be able to trust him, I'm sad because I had just laid down a revolutionary, rock-solid definition of the human mind -- and in the very next post, he "comes clean" about the damn deception-thingy, effectively stealing my thunder. I had a chance to be instantly revered as a philosophical trail-blazer, and this guy hampers the appreciation of my work with this crazy shenanigan?! Negative atlases!

It's all about me ... really,

Ed
[Roger, you've been dastardly -- and if you want me as a friend, then you are going to have to find a way to build my trust back up in you]


Post 94

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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Darn,

I thought Artemis was so cool. But then her post got too long, not a bad thing, but the topic doesn't light my fire.

hahaha,

Michael


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Post 95

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, sorry attention was side-tracked from your input on the definition of "mind." I'll try to make it up to you by giving you some feedback here. Maybe some others will chime in, too...

Neither intellect nor will is any different in ontological status from mind. Neither is an entity. Mind -- and each of its facets, including intellect and will -- is an attribute, a power, of the brain. When the brain is engaging in certain intellectual or volitional (i.e., willing) actions, we "perceive" (i.e., introspect) the brain in action in the form of mind, intellect, will. Those are way in which brain manifests (appears) to us as we are directly aware of its actions. So, when we "perceive mind" (or intellect or will), we are not being aware of anything other than the powers (attributes) and actions of the brain.

It is seductively easy to get into thinking or speaking of mind, intellect, and will as though they were separate entities somehow interacting with the brain.

By the way, while I agree with you that intellect and will are essential powers subsumed under the overall power of mind, but what about evaluation? Or do you include that under intellect?

REB


Post 96

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
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What about volition and life. And perhaps worse, quantum mechanics or a similar agent to unify, what would otherwise be a multiple-personality-disorder type mind?

Awareness: The ability to sense reality, to the end an action is taken. Even if only the state of information-processing elements; i.e. transistors or neurons, et.

Here we have a sensing mechanism which changes some reality, a created "model" or concept, however crude.

Sentience: Awareness of *volition*, the choice of *focusing*, the need to exercise volition. Focus is the target of awareness; i.e. what I see, or feel, or hear, et. Bacteria just sniff, but people need to sense much more, and much more difficultly not merely reflexively act but search out, make sense of data and create complex actions.

Introspection: Awareness of focusing on focus.

Intelligence:

1. Passive: The ability to exercise focus to identify principles. Sort a particular voice out of a crowd. Calculate an MP3 function of a sound, thus minimizing the complexity of the brain necessary to live. Maximizing ability vs. energy or cost.

2. Active: The ability to concatenate actionable principles to achieve a goal. String together a sentence. Play Chess.

Every definition I've posited can be done by machine. But I doubt machines are "alive" in the sense we are. Because the universe is an interwoven tapestry of causality.

The universe is the cause, we are the effect. We are the cause of simple machines which exercise their "volition" on our behalf.

Like Penrose, I can't say I'm Strong AI because I suspect to make a true AI, it will need to be able to create, and be sensitive to sub-graviton level energy/bit states, such that it can maintain its coherence of a unified focus. It will need to act as some form of macro-particle, or rippling soliton-like wavefunction.

At this point, it could hear the "call of nature", as it were, and have a "will" to exist and proliferate to create a chain of causality resulting in the universe being at a state of minimal energy by changing itself to take a path of least-action, as particle do, with their spooky quantum character.

It, as we, would want to "flourish", because suffering is no incentive to live, but happiness is. Hopefully it will adopt the morality of the trader, and choose to dominate before it is dominated by other living things.

That will depend on the evil that exists around it - its role models, and the "abuse" it experiences.

Scott

Post 97

Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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Roger (assuming that is your REAL NAME!),

Thank you, whoever you are, for taking the time to comment on my revolutionary, rock-solid definition of the human mind, refined now as ...

The twin, volitional, adaptive, directional, and intentional mental faculties of conceptual awareness (intellect) & intentional agency (will).


==================
By the way, while I agree with you that intellect and will are essential powers subsumed under the overall power of mind, but what about evaluation? Or do you include that under intellect?
==================

No! I include evaluation under "will" -- and when I call will: "intentional agency," I mean that the agent acts because of thoughts ABOUT "conceptually-conceived" consequences. I'm essentially an Aquinian on this matter. Here's ole' Tom, "intellect" and "will" replaced by "conceptual awarness" and "intentional agency" to show this to be true of me ... 


==================
A [conceptually aware] agent acts for an end that it has chosen for itself, while things in nature that act for ends do not decide their ends, ...

When someone uses his [conceptual awareness] to act, he always chooses an end that he thinks is good because the object of his [conceptual awareness] only moves him when it appears to be a good--and good is the object of the [intentional agency]. Everything in nature moves and acts for an end that is a good since the end of something acting in nature is the result of a natural appetite. ...

the [conceptual awareness] moves the appetites by proposing their objects to them. The [intentional agency] moves the sense appetites of spirit and passion. We do not obey the passions unless the [intentional agency] commands, and the sense appetite, once the [intentional agency] consents, moves the body. ...

The end and good of the [conceptual awareness] is truth.
==================

Ed





 


Post 98

Sunday, February 5, 2006 - 10:53pmSanction this postReply
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Hello, everyone at RoR!

I'm not a "usual" poster here, but I was just lurking (and following this thread) and was thinking to myself -- [Oh dear (ie. "heaven's-to-Betsy's"), these folks are surely blessed by the contributions of that astute ED THOMPSON. Why, he's even originated a "revolutionary, rock-solid definition of the human mind." Something no other philosopher -- professional, nor layman -- has ever, adequately, done before!

And (with this in mind), I got to thinking (to myself): Maybe this lad ought to be getting more credit from his peers -- than he is currently enjoying. But, then, I thought: Well, who am I to tell (to a bunch of otherwise-astute folks) whom to revere -- begads, I'm just an elderly woman with no real axes to grind with these younglings?! Well, I guess I've just taken a liking to that young lad, Ed (insider's note: I call him: "the Tiger"-- roar!)]. It seems to me though -- upon a thorough, rational inspection -- that this lad is a true philosophical trail-blazer! But dare I say that I do digress ...

Anyhoo, I had just thought to pop-in and share some thoughts from a decades-older-than-most-others point of view. I have to say that you have a wonderful (web)site here -- and that I've book-marked it as one of my favorites! That's no small statement either; because, to get on MY "favorites list" -- you had better be putting out something of tremendous value, and this (web)site fills-the-bill-and-then-some! Well, I'm off for my daily walk in the park now (to feed the birds, and what-not). Chance permitting, I will have stimulated useful feed-back from a few of you contributors. Ta, ta!

p.s. "btw" ... "you go, RoR"! In all actual fact, you guys really "rock the houses"!

Margaret
[trying to be "hip" -- in order to fit-in well with you the younger generation 'round here]



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Post 99

Sunday, February 5, 2006 - 11:58pmSanction this postReply
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Margaret, you hipster, you -- your girlish, yet mature, ways are always welcome here! :-)

Here's a question your pal Ed might want to tackle: who was smarter, Ayn Rand or Thomas Aquinas? Either relative to their own cultural context -- or in absolute terms?

Rand is easier to read, so that makes her errors easier to spot, as well. Maybe not so smart, huh. :-) But as best as I can make out, they both have a lot on the ball.

Comments, Ed, anyone -- Margaret, you can chime in, too, if you like!  :-)

REB


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