About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 13Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 260

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 1:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Nate writes:
For concreteness' sake, can you give examples of the three problems you present?

Certainly. (I will try and make this as short as possible )
1) The problem of establishing "true" essential definitions from "false" ones

You call a "puppy" a small dog. I call a "puppy" an arrogant young man. You say I have a false definition of "puppy". I say *you* have a false definition of "puppy". How do you decide? (Both be pointed to in reality)

Now, before you say "context" or something, I've deliberately picked a glaring example to start with that captures the problem clearly. Let me now move to less trivial one. You say the US government is a "democracy" . I define "democracy" as Saddam Hussein's. How do you decide who has the "true" definition? (Then a third person - say Ralph Nader - shows up and says *neither* is a "true" democracy! He has a different definition again)

Actually, it turns out you logically *can't*. The result is an impasse,and discussion turns into stalemate. (Why do you think, as original designer of this system, Aristotle retained Plato's "intuition" as the only way of "truly knowing" the essence of things? He was no fool. Among other things, it is because he thought this would get out his theory out of this logical impasse. ) And no, the fact that Objectivism considers "essences" to be "conceptual" rather than "metaphysical" changes nothing in the situation. The problem is in the system, not what you apply it to.

2) The problem of avoiding the regress of definitions

This is equally straightforward logically, and is in roughly two parts.

a)First, once you have started asking for definitions from your opponent to confirm he has the right grasp of the terms, *where do you stop*? The answer is again: you can't. It is a logically infinite regress. All you can do is make an arbitrary decision - in other words, you must apply the rule of "first define your terms" *inconsistently*. Thus Aristotle's method in the hands of both well-meaning amateurs and wily metaphysicians can turn any argument into a trial of patience.

b) Additionally - as if an infinite regress needed more problems -the aim of improving the precision of your arguments this way is also defeated. For the regress leads either to ever more vague *defining terms*.( try doing it, and see what I mean) or to a tautology - which stops the regress, but at the cost of nil improvement in precision, thus defeating the purpose!

So it's simply not like it appears to your commonsense: that some how defining terms will increase the component precision of your arguments, and thus your arguments themselves. Just as the sun *appears* to move around the earth, in reality it's *the reverse*! Your arguments get vaguer and vaguer, or never really start. It does not work as advertised! The basic problem is exactly the same as the one Aristotle identified as the infinite regress of statements. Aristotle simply overlooked that this regress *applies to definitions* too.

3) Either of these first two problems are enough to render Aristotle's system defunct. This 3rd problem is the most obvious and most minor, and merely complicates the overall situation further.

(Apologies to those who've read all this before. But these problems apply throughout most philosophy from Linguistic Analysis to Objectivism, and are very important - yet are suprisingly little known)

The simple solution is to accept these problems, and use words with an understanding of their benefits and limitations. That is, *make sure as little as possible in your argument depends on your choice of them*.

- Daniel

"The chief danger to our philosophy, apart from laziness and woolliness, is scholasticism...which is treating what is vague as if it were precise..." - F.P. Ramsey









Post 261

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 2:26amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Now look fellows. Since it usually falls to me to post Daniel's excruciating soliloquies from the moderator's queue, & since I usually conscientiously read them before doing so, & since that causes me considerable frustration, & since many of you clearly enjoy trying to reinvent the wheel for him—not to mention helping him *get* ITOE—would you mind awfully sanctioning his posts so he gets some Atlas points & gets lifted from moderation so I am spared this pain?

I tuned out when he started this "words are vague" crap. If words are vague, & words are the currency of discussion, not much point discussing *anything* with him, by his own lights.

He has his Popperian mindset, & he ain't gonna budge. That much I can promise you.

So please, right now, go on a "sanction Daniel" spree & make my life easier.

I could ask Joe simply to unmoderate him, but Joe has firm views on this matter, & I don't want to upset my Exec Dir simply on Daniel's account.

Linz

Post 262

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 7:49amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I don't feel impelled to do so, since there is not a single swear word in the request.

Seriously, though--isn't this the way the Atlas system is supposed to work? Moderate at your convenience.


Post 263

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Linz writes:
>...would you mind awfully sanctioning his posts so he gets some Atlas points & gets lifted from moderation so I am spared this pain?

Alternatively, why not *unsanction* my posts, and have fun torturing the poor devil some more...;-)

>If words are vague, & words are the currency of discussion, not much point discussing *anything* with him, by his own lights.

Sigh. This is one reason why I persist. If the only counter arguments are this feeble, I feel Popper must really be on to something. For words *are* vague to a greater or lesser degree, and even Linz's own philosophy agrees with this! This is why it insists we must "first define our terms"; so we can supposedly rid them of this vagueness, and thus, it is assumed, make precise arguments.

Yet it turns out these are mere assumptions - fallacies actually - and backfiring ones at that! Instead, what I suggest improves the quality of arguments is the *form the words are put in* . No different from an engineer who understands the limitations of his material, and decides to improve its strength by *putting it together it in a certain way*. Get it?

>He has his Popperian mindset, & he ain't gonna budge. That much I can promise you.

A good refutation of the problems I've outlined would do it - that much I can promise *you*. But so far no-one's come up with one.

- Daniel







Post 264

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 1:58pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
You call a "puppy" a small dog. I call a "puppy" an arrogant young man. You say I have a false definition of "puppy". I say *you* have a false definition of "puppy". How do you decide? (Both be pointed to in reality)

Now, before you say "context" or something, I've deliberately picked a glaring example to start with that captures the problem clearly.


No you haven't—you've picked an example that has absolutely nothing to do with the problem you've stated. This isn't an issue of two possible definitions for the same concept; this is just a case of a word which denotes two distinct concepts.

Let me now move to less trivial one. You say the US government is a "democracy" . I define "democracy" as Saddam Hussein's. How do you decide who has the "true" definition? (Then a third person - say Ralph Nader - shows up and says *neither* is a "true" democracy! He has a different definition again)


Now this is a valid example. But there's still no issue here. Governments like the U.S., governments like Iraq, and governments like Ralph Nader's dreams are all valid and distinct concepts, and it doesn't matter (leaving aside questions of etymology) which one we label as “democracy.” All that matters is that when we're arguing about democracy, we use the label “democracy” to refer to the same concept (and hence have identical or at least compatible definitions for that label).

Now, if we don't agree on which concept we want to refer to with “democracy,” what do we do? We examine our definitions. We examine the constituent concepts of our respective concepts of “democracy” until we reach a point where we can agree, and try to build a common concept from there. Sure, it's a hassle, and nowhere near as entertaining as actually forming propositions, but really, what kind of useful propositions are you going to be able to make about “democracy” if you don't agree on what the word means?

And of course, this leads into your second point.

First, once you have started asking for definitions from your opponent to confirm he has the right grasp of the terms, *where do you stop*?


Wherever you need to. As I said above, the goal of discussing definitions isn't to reach some kind of intrinsically “true” definition, but to reach a common definition that lets each of the participants in the discussion know what everybody else is talking about. If you're trying to find a common root on which to build a common definition, you stop when you find agreement.

Now, Rand talks about “first-order” concepts, which are concepts most efficiently defined ostensively rather than verbally. When you reach a first-order concept, it is no longer necessary to keep stating definitions, since you can just say “By ‘table’ I mean this!” while pointing at a frog*.

I don't necessarily agree with Rand that everyone will be able to treat the same concepts as “first-order,” but I do think that, because good concepts and hence good definitions are founded in aspects of reality, the participants in a debate will just about always be able to find some aspect of reality for which they share a common concept and then build from there.

(In fact, if you want to talk about “true” and “false” concepts, that might be a good way of telling what concepts are “true”—those which, when examined, can be reduced to facts of reality instead of leading into an infinite regression of words.)




*It works even better if you point at a table.

Post 265

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Regarding I. N. Rand’s comments on second-handedness and “World 3 thinking gone wild,” these are somewhat in line with an idea that is slowly forming in my mind: that instead of learning from IOE, Daniel should study and apply The Fountainhead.

 

The idea of unmediated contact between one’s mind and reality and the irrelevance of other people in the formation and use of concepts seems wholly antithetical to his epistemology. It’s mainly about communicating with and convincing one’s fellows—and particularly dull fellows at that.


Post 266

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Nate writes:
>2)This isn't really a problem.  The hierarchy of knowledge goes back quite a ways, but eventually you get back to first-level concepts-- things like "red", which can't be conveyed using other words and have to be ostensively defined.

Should you choose to do that, see my 1).

Additionally, I recommend you have another read of the "First Level Concepts" section of "Abstraction from Abstractions" in the IOE. It doesn't seem to support what you're saying

Rand:"What I call the "first level" of concepts are existential concretes-that to which you can point as if it were an ostensive definition and say: "I mean this." Now, you can point to a table. You cannot point to furniture."

Your "red" is more "furniture" than "table"!

Of course, I'm not saying that her position is coherent either. For example, later she says you can go *down* as well as up from "First Level" concepts, cheerfully defying all known meanings of "First Level"!! And what about those supposed "hierachies" where everything is nonetheless *on the same level*!? Who wouldn't be confused by this sort of talk?

- Daniel




Post 267

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Daniel,
... I recommend you have another read of the "First Level Concepts" section of "Abstraction from Abstractions" in the IOE.
I don't need to for this.
It doesn't seem to support what you're saying.
It does.

Rand:"What I call the "first level" of concepts are existential concretes-that to which you can point as if it were an ostensive definition and say: "I mean this." Now, you can point to a table. You cannot point to furniture."

Your "red" is more "furniture" than "table"!
It is not.  The reason that you cannot form the concept "furniture" as a first order concept is that there is no valid Conceptual Common Denominator at that point.  To put it more colloquially, there isn't enough perceptual similarity between all of the different kinds of furniture to justify the formation of a concept.  The shape and function of a table allows for such a CCD, and that's why it is a valid first-level concept.

There is enough perceptual similarity between red things, so you can form the concept "red" as a first-level concept.  However, you cannot do the same with "primary" in the sense of primary colors, since there isn't a good reason why you would integrate red, yellow and blue objects unless you first know that they form the basis of all other colors.

Of course, I'm not saying that her position is coherent either.
Then why did you discuss it as such?
For example, later she says you can go *down* as well as up from "First Level" concepts, cheerfully defying all known meanings of "First Level"!! And what about those supposed "hierachies" where everything is nonetheless *on the same level*!? Who wouldn't be confused by this sort of talk?
Rand defines the concept of "first-level" very nicely.  You confuse the logical structure of concepts with the chronological structure.  Rand even cautions against this in IOE.  First level concepts do not necessarily indicate concepts with the widest possible grouping, nor the narrowest possible.  They merely indicate which are the first formed chronologically.

Nate


Post 268

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Of course, I'm not saying that her position is coherent either. For example, later she says you can go *down* as well as up from "First Level" concepts, cheerfully defying all known meanings of "First Level"!!


Not really—you can go both “down” and “up,” but only after you've formed the concept in the “middle.” So in that sense, such concepts are “first-level.”

Meaning, you can't really understand the difference between a Persian and a Siamese until you have a pretty solid grasp of what a “cat” might be. “Cat” is more “first-level” than “Persian” or “animal” because the differences among breeds of cats are less obvious than the similarities among cats, and because the differences between cats and other animals are greater than the similarities.

Post 269

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rodney:
>The idea of unmediated contact between one’s mind and reality and the irrelevance of other people in the formation and use of concepts seems wholly antithetical to his epistemology.

Newsflash! The very language so critical in describing your mental concepts was *invented* by all those "irrelevant" other people. The way you probably first learned what table was...when your mother showed you one, and said "Rodney...this is a *table*". (or did she have to show you *two* of them before you could grasp what she was talking about? And wouldn't you be rather um...dull...if this was the case?)

- Daniel

Post 270

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 4:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Nate
>To put it more colloquially, there isn't enough perceptual similarity between all of the different kinds of furniture to justify the formation of a concept.

Er...don't you mean "conceptual similarity"? Or are you saying your *perception* of furniture changes ie: things become similar enough to justify a concept from? Sounds like a no-no to me.

Look, the whole confusion seems to be summarised here:
>Rand:"What I call the "first level" of concepts are existential concretes.."

- Daniel
(Edited by Daniel Barnes on 1/20, 5:30pm)


Post 271

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 5:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Daniel, you will never know how happy you just made me with this statement:

The very language so critical in describing your mental concepts was invented by all those “irrelevant” other people.

I think I’ll bow out now. Thank you, thank you.

 

It’s getting late. But in the time remaining,

I’ll simply say I need no firmer seal

Upon the truth and logic of my spiel

Than that you clapped and found it entertaining.

THE END


Post 272

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Daniel,
>To put it more colloquially, there isn't enough perceptual similarity between all of the different kinds of furniture to justify the formation of a concept.

Er...don't you mean "conceptual similarity"? Or are you saying your *perception* of furniture changes ie: things become similar enough to justify a concept from? Sounds like a no-no to me.
This is why I prefaced my statement with "To put it more colloquially."  I'll put it another, equivalent way.  You can form the idea of a table as a first-level concept because there's something about the way that tables look (a flat surface on supports) and what they do (it holds stuff) to justify enough similarity with which to form a concept.
Look, the whole confusion seems to be summarised here:
>Rand:"What I call the "first level" of concepts are existential concretes.."
I would read this differently.  I think Rand is saying that the referents of first level concepts are perceptual concretes, as opposed to higher-level concepts which may subsume other concepts.

Nate


Sanction: 2, No Sanction: 0
Post 273

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Nature
>Governments like the U.S., governments like Iraq, and governments like Ralph Nader's dreams are all valid and distinct concepts, and it doesn't matter (leaving aside questions of etymology) which one we label as “democracy.”

Excellent. Now I believe we're close to agreement. This is known as - and for once I will resort to jargon - *methodological nominalism*. (I do so merely to distinguish between metaphysical nominalism). Words are just labels for our ideas.

Nature:
>Now, if we don't agree on which concept we want to refer to with “democracy,” what do we do? We examine our definitions.We examine the constituent concepts of our respective concepts of “democracy” until we reach a point where we can agree, and try to build a common concept from there.

Nature, you outrageous "second-hander", you...;-) Rodney clearly hasn't explained to you the complete "irrelevance" of other people in the process of concept formation! (But he will have to take that up with you - if from his stock of entirely personally formed ideas and words he can find enough to communicate with you, that is!)

Now, on the other hand, if you want to find a commonly understood definition of "democracy", I can save you all that trouble. Guess how? And I agree: it is pointless having discussions where no-one agrees on the meanings of words. So therefore *why are these specialised definitions so essential to understanding Objectivism in the first place*?? It's a one-way ticket to the Esotericville. (If you have to use jargon, use it sparingly, and explain why you need it in the first place - just like I have above)

Regarding the regress of definitions, Nature writes:
>...you stop when you find agreement.

Then if agreement is all you're after, why not just *start* with it? Hey, that's what dictionaries are there to settle! Then you can actually get on with the fun part, constructing theories, problems , proposals etc. I'm 100% up for that. I just don't think its the Objectivist position, that's all...;-)



- Daniel




Post 274

Friday, January 21, 2005 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Sorry, can't scroll to read replies?

Hmmm...something seems to be technically wrong here. I haven't been able to actually scroll further than halfway thru post 266 for the past day or so, so I can't read any further replies. Don't know why, but maybe technology is trying to tell me something....;-) Anyway, probably not a bad point to wrap it up, and put Linz out of his misery! I can see a few people have responded on the home page - well, if you can read this, and want to have at me further about what I regard as serious logical bugs in Objectivism's basic OS (and that of supposedly unrelated modern philosophies like Linguistic Analysis), please mail me at estigon2001@yahoo.co.nz and I will be happy to respond. Thanks for the sustained challenges to date.

- Daniel

"The chief danger to our philosophy, apart from laziness and woolliness, is scholasticism...which is treating what is vague as if it were precise..." - F.P. Ramsey

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 275

Friday, January 21, 2005 - 4:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Daniel,
*why are these specialised definitions so essential to understanding Objectivism in the first place*?? It's a one-way ticket to the Esotericville.
This is an even scarier statement than the one which started this gigantic thread.  You seem to be arguing that if a discipline requires new words and concepts to understand, it isn't worth investigating.  If so, this is really serious-- because physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology, astrology, and philosophy, et. al., have all introduced new terms to discuss concepts which no one had thought to consider before.  Would you really place all of these disciplines in 'Esotericville'?  If so, you advocate the destruction of human thought.

Genuinely frightened,

Nate



Post 276

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
(Seems to be working again now. Sorry Linz!)
Nate writes:
>This is an even scarier statement than the one which started this gigantic thread.

You sure scare easy! 
Nate:
>You seem to be arguing that if a discipline requires new words and concepts to understand, it isn't worth investigating. 

No, not at all. What I'm arguing is that using ordinary words, but constantly appealing to *extraordinary* meanings of them is obviously confusing (like "First Level" for example). It also opens the way to a philosophy becoming esoteric (that is, comprehensible only to the initiated believers). For example, Rick's statement that concepts can "neither be complete, nor incomplete" is a very typical kind of esoteric statement. I do not understand it, and neither did you. (And perhaps neither does he, because it seems he had formerly said that they were *both* complete and incomplete! Whew! Perhaps the words "both" and "neither" don't apply to concepts too..;-))

Now, obviously we will always be inventing new words, and bending existing ones to fit new ideas. (Inherited, borrowed, adapted, vague etc) But we should do this as little as possible if we want to communicate clearly.

>If so, this is really serious...

It isn't, so it isn't.

>If so, you advocate the destruction of human thought.

Nate, I find it hard to believe you would actually credit me with this.

- Daniel




Post 277

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Daniel Barnes writes:
For example, Rick's statement that concepts can "neither be complete, nor incomplete" is a very typical kind of esoteric statement.
I never made any such statement! You are clearly very confused.
And perhaps neither does he, because it seems he had formerly said that they were *both* complete and incomplete!
Nor did I ever write any such thing.

You really ought to work on getting your facts straight first and then we can work on helping you understand those facts.

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 278

Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 7:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Nature, you outrageous "second-hander", you...;-) Rodney clearly hasn't explained to you the complete "irrelevance" of other people in the process of concept formation! (But he will have to take that up with you - if from his stock of entirely personally formed ideas and words he can find enough to communicate with you, that is!)


Well, the difference is that Rodney and I are talking about concepts (and language) in different contexts. He, like most of ITOE, is talking about concepts in the context of an individual's personal organization of knowledge. ITOE argues that an individual not engaged in any communication at all would still need to form concepts, would need to create some sort of language in order to label those concepts with perceptual symbols, and would still benefit greatly from explicitly examining and stating definitions for his concepts. So in that sense, other people are irrelevant to concept formation.

Now, in the context of communication between individuals—which I think has been the focus of this thread—other people are relevant to a degree, even if it's only in supplying labels from an existing language for an individual to apply to concepts he forms on his own. Also individuals thinking alone may form different concepts, especially for very abstract concepts. (To hear some Objectivists talk, this is entirely the result of sloppy thinking. I think it's more just a result of the fact that two individuals are going to encounter different percepts in life. Someone who spends his life reading libertarian news sites is going to associate different concretes with “injustice” than someone who spends his life watching gang wars going on in his front yard. Still, explicit examination and definition of one's personal concepts does tend to lead to more generalized concepts.) So there is a need to find common concepts between two people, whether you get it from a dictionary or from a specialized definition that you both agree on.

Then if agreement is all you're after, why not just *start* with it? Hey, that's what dictionaries are there to settle!


Well, you still have to agree on which dictionary to use. :-P

And dictionary definitions really aren't all that good for very specialized discussions; they tend towards the vague and the colloquial. I wouldn't try to understand calculus from a dictionary definition of “integration”; I'd look at a mathematical definition instead. Objectivism as a formal system has more in common with mathematics than colloquial discussion, but a lot of it deals with ideas that are treated almost exclusively in a very colloquial sense. For example, look at Merriam-Webster Online's definition of “right” (I select the senses specifically pertaining to political rights):

2 : something to which one has a just claim: as a : the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled b (1) : the interest that one has in a piece of property -- often used in plural (2) plural : the property interest possessed under law or custom and agreement in an intangible thing especially of a literary and artistic nature
3 : something that one may properly claim as due


Using these definitions, can you form any kind of coherent proposition about whether there is any such thing as a “right” to health care? They certainly do illustrate well your point about circular definitions—what is a “just” or “proper” claim? This just isn't good enough to use in a formal theory of politics with a basis not in common usage but in an equally formal theory of metaphysics. So Rand uses specialist definitions of words like “right” specifically to avoid the circularity of colloquial definitions—by referring not to common usage but to already established ideas in ethics and metaphysics.

(If you have to use jargon, use it sparingly, and explain why you need it in the first place - just like I have above)


I do actually agree that a lot of Objectivists do seem to have a bad habit of using specialist definitions when talking to non-Objectivists—just look at any ARI press release filled with talk about “intrinsicism,” “altruism,” and “selfishness,” which don't mean to most people what they mean to Objectivists. Now, I think Ayn Rand herself was usually fairly good about stating definitions of specialized terms before she started throwing them around, but her example doesn't always seem to be followed.

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 279

Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Using these [commonly accepted dictionary] definitions, can you form any kind of coherent proposition about whether there is any such thing as a “right” to health care?
Exactly right--this is just what I had in mind (and I am sure I. N. Rand and Nate did also). Daniel's method makes it impossible to solve such philosophical problems--it consists in retaining all of the errors of the past and attempting to solve the problems by simply ringing the changes on these old ideas.

In fact, all progress in human knowledge involves new information or new perspectives that leads to new classifications and new concepts. Sometimes a new concept amounts to a new, more precise, more useful take on the old one. In that case we might continue to use the same word. 

As an example of the propriety, indeed the necessity, of redefinition of concepts, recall AR's characterization of economic power as "the power of independent production." This new definition fixes an intellectual integration of the facts of reality--those already known plus others identified by AR.

Sorry for the anticlimactic interjection after my exit above. But the present observations lie behind the reason for my exit. I am happy to have finally arrived at a clue to the root of Daniel's errors--see the Rand quote I have posted on second-handedness. I'll say it again: the book to throw at these arguments of DB is not Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, but The Fountainhead.


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 13Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.